Linden Blog: Transcript post

Community Roundtable transcript for 08/03/2006 meeting.

[9:01] Blue Linden: well, it’s a cozy group this time…morning Americans, good afternoon euros :)
[9:01] Blue Linden: There’s pizza behind me if anyone is so inclined, help yourself :)
[9:02] Tao Takashi: actually I need some dinner ;)
[9:02] Katt Kongo: food fight anyone?
[9:02] The Sojourner: mmm now you did it. runs to kitchen for food
[9:02] Blue Linden: For the first time in an official meeting-related context, Claudia Linden joins us today, welcome Claudia!
[9:02] Kate Ash: welcome clad
[9:02] Katt Kongo applauds for Claudia
[9:02] Gus Plisskin: (claps) Hi Claudia
[9:03] Blue Linden: She was kind enough to agree to co-host the meeting should I suddenly fall asleep *yon*
[9:03] Callipygian Christensen: Hi again Claudia
[9:03] Claudia Linden: thank you, katt. hi ugss
[9:03] Talarus Luan: Greetings, and welcome, Claudia. :)
[9:03] Frans Charming: Hi Claudia, welcome to SL and LL. ;)
[9:03] Torley Linden: yay Claudia! :)
[9:03] Tom Bukowski welcomes Claudia
[9:03] Claudia Linden: thanks for warm welcome. good to be here. first roundtable…;-)
[9:04] Blue Linden: Claudia is working with educators using the teen grid with their classes, and other essential tasks here at the lab :)
[9:04] Claudia Linden: always plenty of those essential tasks ;D
[9:04] Talarus Luan: Hmmm.. so they got you running the floor buffer now, eh? ;)
[9:05] Blue Linden: I’m afraid the roundtable email asking for topics went out a bit late this time, and there were no actual topics submitted….
[9:05] Blue Linden: ….so you’re all free to go! KKTHXBYE!
[9:05] Gus Plisskin: no worries. we’ll come up with something
[9:05] Blue Linden: Actually, I’m sure there are plenty of topics we can think of ;p
[9:07] Talarus Luan: One issue that is on my mind, though I am not sure this is the proper venue for it, but I am concerned about the impact aspects of the updates and their frequency.
[9:07] Blue Linden: Okay, because it’s such a cozy group, we should be able to simply keep track of the order in which people bring up topics without using scripted soapbox
[9:08] Blue Linden: Okay Talarus, good one….
[9:08] Blue Linden: If you’ve been around a bit, you’ll remember Giant Updates coinciding with whole numbers and small fractional divisions thereof
[9:09] Talarus Luan: My main concern is that energy and focus is being spent forging headlong into quite an ambitious set of changes to the world, but not enough attention to some of the consequences left in the wake of said changes.
[9:09] Blue Linden: Yes, Talarus, we had been concerned by that as well….
[9:09] Blue Linden: as such we switched to smaller, weekly updates
[9:10] Blue Linden: only releasing one or two new features at a time
[9:10] Tao Takashi: one thing which might be good to have is probably to have more people on preview
[9:10] Tao Takashi: so there need to be some incentives to go there
[9:10] Blue Linden: that has been an improvement, but to a certain extent Wednesday releases have their own issues, namely that some residents feel they are too frequent an interruption of their business
[9:11] Blue Linden: and the rest of us SL addicts get withdrawal symptoms
[9:11] Talarus Luan: A couple of issues come to mind regarding it. One is that the speed of changes may not be giving you all enough time to fully test and act on feedback form your testers.
[9:11] Claudia Linden: Suggest some incentives Tao. - good suggestion.
[9:11] Torley Linden: Gus: I’m aware of some focus bugs related to that, and other parts of the UI–i’m reporting them as i find Residents bringing them up. also that behavior may be made optional, so let’s see.
[9:11] Frans Charming: At some point Philip said he wanted to move to a update once in 2 weeks, what is preventing that, or has that changed?
[9:12] Tao Takashi: I would also be interested in what testing is actually going on at LL, for me it’s more like a black box
[9:12] Talarus Luan: The other is that, focusing the teams on the features and their major fallout issues (like the current issues with the friends list / online status) is starving out focus and attention to smaller concerns.
[9:12] Blue Linden: Also the most recent releases actually addressed quite a large number of bugs….it’s a shame the friends list issue is hogging all the attention :)
[9:12] The Sojourner: Personally, I prefer the weekly planned updates to the old way where it hit and you lagged fro weeks ahead and behind
[9:12] Frans Charming: Yea, i’m glad with all the bug fixes. =)
[9:13] Jeska Linden: We also need to be flexible in order to push out bug and exploit fixes, especially particularly nasty ones, as soon as we have the fix.
[9:13] The Sojourner: however, I don’t understand why we are changing what the Inventory arrows look like or the glitzy snapshots
[9:13] Foolish Frost: I did bring that up a while back in a thread.
[9:13] Talarus Luan: One smaller concern I speak of is the situation with my home sims of Limbo and Lethe, which have been crashing regularly for weeks now, most recently every hour or so.
[9:13] Gus Plisskin: The Sojourner: I agree. The Wednesday updates are planned. Many can schedule around them.
[9:13] Robin Linden: I think you’ll see us lengthen the time between releases from one week to 2 or maybe even 3
[9:13] The Sojourner: I can’t use snapshot anymore for the things I used to
[9:13] Robin Linden: we’re trying to find a balance between too frequent and too long. both have their problems
[9:13] Callipygian Christensen: I am not a big content creator or vendor, and neither are most of my friends. One of the challenges I run into, as do they, is recognizing when something IS a bug, as opposed to an intentional feature
[9:13] Torley Linden: Soj, did you also know you can bypass the preview and directly take snapshots to disk using Ctrl-`?
[9:14] Blue Linden: I’ve heard that from many people Soj, and I’ve found that new snapshots don’t include an old functionality that I miss….
[9:14] Tao Takashi: Torley: I want a small preview actually and it seems the CTRL-´ does not work on German keyboards
[9:14] Tao Takashi: at least for me it never did
[9:14] Torley Linden: Soj, I’ve also been aggregating all snapshot feedback–here’s the common thoughtline:
[9:14] The Sojourner: Torley, it doesn’t work for taking pics of menus
[9:14] Torley Linden: good point Soj, currently i use Gadwin Printscreen to do that. it’s free.
[9:15] Blue Linden: 3D time stop for pics is nice, but shutting it off for old style rapid fire shots in real time would be handy
[9:15] Talarus Luan: Being a software developer (including MMOs), I can understand the situation you are in. Serious issues like exploits and major grid-destroying bugs have to be addressed quickly, to be sure.
[9:15] Tao Takashi: the optional thing sounds good to me
[9:15] The Sojourner: but why should we have to go to an alternate method when the old one worked?
[9:15] Torley Linden: re: these UI issues with snapshots and focus and pie menus etc.– i will continue to post on the unified Linden blog @ with updates as they come.
[9:16] Jeska Linden: I really like the increased functionality of the new snapshot, although it did take some getting used to when I first used it
[9:16] The Sojourner: re: the Preview .. I haven’t found that I do things there that I do here… so I don’t find the bugs that end up important to me
[9:16] Callipygian Christensen: Torley, I love the new sanphot functions -but yesterdays update broke some of them
[9:16] The Sojourner: thanks Torley
[9:16] Torley Linden: in related news, Kelly Linden posted details of the different kinds of updates:
[9:16] Blue Linden: Hopefully you’re finding New and Improved bugs Soj ;)
[9:17] Foolish Frost: Perhaps an alpha grid, beta grid, and primary grid?
[9:17] Torley Linden: Calli please email me ( with all the good details and i will check them out for sure. i’m aware that if you send a postcard while clicking Discard on the Snapshot Preview, it’ll crash you. i recorded that.
[9:17] The Sojourner: lol.. oh yeah.. the bugs are definitely new and improved… altho I don’t think tht is what you mean
[9:17] Blue Linden: FF, That’s an interesting thought, one we could bring to the developers. Not sure what the logistics of that would be…..
[9:17] Callipygian Christensen: Torley, different issue so Ill e-mail :)
[9:18] Blue Linden: in part i assumed that the previews were like that in a way as they are updated over time
[9:18] The Sojourner: and Blue, yes, some things do improve.. :)
[9:19] Foolish Frost: Oh, yes. But I was thinking reduced land prices for people in beta, in order to interest people into living there!
[9:19] Creative Nadir: have we addressed the annoying camera rotation infullscreen mouselook?
[9:19] Blue Linden: reduced prices in Preview? doesn’t free money cover that?
[9:19] Claudia Linden: you are the first to mention here, creative
[9:20] Foolish Frost: Actually, I’m talking about land, tier, and permanent living in beta.
[9:20] Blue Linden: I was unaware of that, but perhaps the community team isn’t best suited to address bug issues heheh
[9:20] Tao Takashi: living on the edge :)
[9:21] Blue Linden: Oh, I see what you mean FF….that’s a very interesting concept. I can see how that might result in more regular preview inhabitants….
[9:21] Tao Takashi: well, would living in beta actually work for people? (assuming you mean preview)
[9:21] Claudia Linden: i like the living in beta..
[9:21] Foolish Frost: Bleeding edge SL: You get he newest features, at discounted prices! Course, we can’t promise stability…
[9:21] Blue Linden: which could be good for a few reasons
[9:21] Torley Linden: yes about Resident Experience bug issues, please DO send a bug report with a clear step-by-step reproduction from the HELP menu, then email me at with the bug report # and i can coordinate with Quality Assurance.
[9:21] Tao Takashi: like, your inventory is deleted regularly, as is the land
[9:21] Tao Takashi: and as long as there’s only few living there it might be somewhat boring
[9:22] Gus Plisskin: Tao: But it could be a separate grid rather than randomly selected main grid sims
[9:22] Tao Takashi: so even if you build there you a) cannot take it over to the main grid and b) it can be gone again tomorrow
[9:22] Foolish Frost: It’s an idea. Nothing more. I can already see tons of logistic problems.
[9:22] Loydin Tripp: I posted this on the forum but one problem I have with Preview is that it messes my current app
[9:22] Blue Linden: Gus….that might defeat the point of testing MG? I’m not positive on that one
[9:22] Foolish Frost: A totally separate one.
[9:22] Foolish Frost: Self sustained.
[9:22] Tao Takashi: Gus: ok, maybe.. dunno about capacity then, though.. If more and more people will move there, LL needs to host this somehow
[9:22] Jeska Linden: I know Joe and the QA team have tons of ideas about increasing the value of preview.
[9:23] Tao Takashi: so I wonder if tier can be less
[9:23] Gus Plisskin: I was clarifying. I doubt it’s doable.
[9:23] Tao Takashi: Vektor just needs to do more pile-on tests ;)
[9:23] Blue Linden: haha
[9:23] Tao Takashi: that was fun :)
[9:23] Jeska Linden: hehehe everyone pile on vektor!
[9:23] Callipygian Christensen: Is not being able to transfer content you create their a technical issue or just a decision of LL?
[9:23] Blue Linden: hehe yes, next time, in a phone booth or VW Bug
[9:23] Callipygian Christensen: there, not their sheesh
[9:23] Talarus Luan: Regarding Preview, is there any mechanism for receiving test assignments for new features? I wouldn’t mind spending time in Preview, but outside of my normal routine (which is snout buried in script windows), I wouldn’t know what to test.
[9:23] Foolish Frost: Transfer?
[9:24] Tao Takashi: Calli: one test on pile-on would be mass inventory transfer between residents.. this might not work then anymore
[9:24] The Sojourner: Talarus, that is a good idea
[9:24] Blue Linden: I believe it’s a bit of both Calli
[9:24] Tao Takashi: and as said: Maybe we need a bit more insight of what LL actually is testing already
[9:24] Tao Takashi: what is open etc.
[9:24] Blue Linden: Talarus, yes, sometimes for previews with many new features, Vek sets up stations where you choose assignments
[9:25] Jeska Linden: They have that great backpack test hud thing
[9:25] Tao Takashi: get these stations actually used?
[9:25] Tao Takashi: because testing stuff over and over is boring
[9:25] Talarus Luan: I mean, I know that it is important to continue doing things we would normally do to find problems introduced in them as an unintended side effect of changes.
[9:25] Tao Takashi: and how do I know then if not everybody is testing the same 2 boxes
[9:26] Foolish Frost: Hmnnn. I just had a thought!
[9:26] Tao Takashi: well, once the messaging is more flexible I assume that we don’t need a preview that much anyway anymore
[9:26] Talarus Luan: however, I would expect that focused attention on what had changed would be of best use.
[9:26] Blue Linden: Yes Vek’s stations are often all used in the course of preview!
[9:26] Tao Takashi: just the question how long it takes to do that
[9:26] Foolish Frost: About the beta grid: How about if it was made up of PRIVATE islands at discount?
[9:26] Torley Linden: expand on that idea please, Foolish?
[9:27] Gus Plisskin: Foolish: transferring builds from preview to main would be tough since parcels aren’t backed up individually. But private islands would be different. They might be transferable.
[9:27] Foolish Frost: Well, many private islands are based on personal space for residents…
[9:27] Blue Linden: Tao….only one person per test assignment. Vek has been very thorough with that system. Keep an eye out in a future preview
[9:27] Talarus Luan: (looks back in chat log) Oops. OK. Well, I suppose I will just look for Vektor Linden’s stations. :)
[9:27] Tao Takashi: btw, maybe another topic: we discuss lots here and LL listens but I somehow have the feeling that we never get that much feedback back.. So it would be nice to have some process in which residents gets informed about certain states of projects
[9:28] Foolish Frost: So, do this: Offer islands on the beta grid for discount, with full understanding that they would have to deal with possible bugs.
[9:28] Tao Takashi: (like the last name change discussion we had quite some time back. no idea what the state at LL is right now about that)
[9:28] Foolish Frost: But, they get bleeding edge tools at lower prices.
[9:28] Talarus Luan: Just a curious question: how big is the Preview grid?
[9:28] Tao Takashi: Blue:I will :)
[9:28] Blue Linden: Tao, we do work to make sure everyone gets feedback on what we’re working on….transparency across the board
[9:29] Foolish Frost: When the MAIN grid catches up with the beta, you can even have it where the items finished in the ‘final beta’ can be dumped to main grid.
[9:29] The Sojourner: I went to preview several times and didnot recognize a test station or what it was.. maybe that is something to look at? O r, was I being dense
[9:29] Tao Takashi: Blue: ok, cool, then see it as reminder :)
[9:29] Blue Linden: different residents engage different communication channels though, so we spread the love to various places :)
[9:29] Jeska Linden: Maybe we could have the QA team do a meeting in the main grid about helping with preview? or how to best help with preview?
[9:29] Callipygian Christensen: Blue, I know you believe that to be true, but I don’t think the average resident would agree
[9:29] Talarus Luan: That would be encouraging, Jeska. :)
[9:30] Tao Takashi: well, it would be good to have one central channel IMHO
[9:30] Torley Linden: i know somethings we can’t make painfully obvious enough. it could be all decked out in Neon and spinning around and it still wouldn’t be glaringly in plain sight
[9:30] Tao Takashi: or some channel which aggregates the others
[9:30] The Sojourner: Jeska, that would e nice
[9:30] Blue Linden: That’s one of the community team challenges Calli….how to reach the residents that don’t read forums, blogs, attend roundtables or stop at the infohubs
[9:30] Torley Linden: we’re moving more and more into the blogosphere
[9:30] Foolish Frost: I have to admit, a bit of that communication would seem to be instigated by a few residents: I would NOT want to be the linden who came out and discussed problems..
[9:30] Blue Linden: yes Tao, and we’ve been looking at added functionality to the website in that respect
[9:30] Torley Linden: i personally am watching Resident blogs via Tao’s !
[9:30] Tao Takashi: it’s ok if more channels are used but maybe all the information should at least be available e.g. on blogs
[9:31] Loydin Tripp: YesI am too busy in Second Life for blogs
[9:31] Foolish Frost: What about you robin? Did the resident reaction to your openness do well?
[9:31] Tao Takashi: can be copied elsewhere
[9:31] Callipygian Christensen: I want SL CNN that I can tune in while working lol
[9:31] Tao Takashi: so when I want to know everything I know where to look and don’t have to scan everything
[9:31] Loydin Tripp: I like the CNN idea
[9:31] Tao Takashi: you want breaking exploit news? :)
[9:31] Creative Nadir: increased presence of SL news on the interwebs would be a good thing
[9:31] Loydin Tripp: Yes
[9:31] Foolish Frost: Hey. I LIKE that idea!
[9:31] Torley Linden: yeah that’s an idea that’s been around–a news ticker at the top of the screen.
[9:31] Tom Bukowski: SLNN
[9:31] Robin Linden: sometimes this sitting thing is so hard!
[9:32] Foolish Frost: SL radio news network!
[9:32] Blue Linden: You’d like the news scroll at the bottom of the screen?
[9:32] Callipygian Christensen: why not..would a stream with info be hard to provide?
[9:32] Tao Takashi: Adam just needs to enhance his radio and give news :)
[9:32] Loydin Tripp: Well and talk shows
[9:32] Creative Nadir: a news scroll HUD shouldn’t be hard
[9:32] The Sojourner: Loydin, I am with you. I rarely read things and prefer to hear about them
[9:32] Loydin Tripp: Feed back to current stuff
[9:32] Tao Takashi: I am working on a HUD for actually
[9:32] Jeska Linden: Linden Radio has tips and music
[9:32] Foolish Frost: You know, you could even have it as a button option to be head from ANYWHERE in SL!
[9:33] Torley Linden: i think a key thing we’re seeing right now, and is very cool, is Resident propagation of Linden news–for example, on Second Life Insider. offering unique commentary of course but tracking back to the same root source. that helps get the word out there.
[9:33] Jeska Linden: i have to record an updated tip this week actually…
[9:33] Frans Charming: Creative but such a hud would only reach a small part of the residents.
[9:33] Foolish Frost: Have it as a pref menu option!
[9:33] Loydin Tripp: Radio Linden seems to repeat the same content all the time so I stopped listening
[9:33] Callipygian Christensen: news hud, radio stream..anything that is *easy* to access
[9:33] Kate Ash: yes, so that breaking news could be streamed or something..
[9:33] Jeska Linden: But Torley is right, I’m not sure LL is the right source of that type of media -I love listening to Resident podcasts, reading the various resident-provided news channels
[9:33] Foolish Frost: Nope. would reach everyone if it was built into the interface!
[9:33] Tao Takashi: of course for better coverage it should be client side
[9:34] Creative Nadir: what about building RSS into the SL client?
[9:34] Blue Linden: Loydin, new Radio Linden content coming soon, featuring the voices of several of us normally-shy community team members ;p
[9:34] Loydin Tripp: Built into the interface
[9:34] Torley Linden: who here reads the MOTD regularly upon logging in? :)
[9:34] Foolish Frost: Still have to stop and read that? Radio is so you can keep track while doing things.
[9:34] Foolish Frost: Here!
[9:34] Frans Charming: I always read it.
[9:34] Loydin Tripp: MOTD?
[9:34] Callipygian Christensen waves..I do
[9:34] Blue Linden: MOTD = message of the day
[9:34] Tao Takashi: ah, all the Lindens btw could also put more in their profile page
[9:34] Kate Ash: message of the day
[9:34] Talarus Luan: guaranteed to find what they are looking for.
[9:34] Torley Linden: MOTD = Message Of The Day
[9:34] Torley Linden: Tao: VERY GOOD POINT DUDE
[9:34] Loydin Tripp: I do see that
[9:35] Torley Linden: Tao we were actually talking about that recently!
[9:35] Claudia Linden: Katt, any thoughts on M2 in this news thread…how do you relate?
[9:35] Katt Kongo: sorry, am taking notes and am a bit behind :)
[9:35] The Sojourner: ah I do
[9:35] Callipygian Christensen: Could something be added to the Search function?
[9:35] Loydin Tripp: Well you could break into channels
[9:35] Loydin Tripp: On subjects
[9:35] Foolish Frost: I was just teasing a linden about not updating in a year…
[9:35] Tao Takashi: I can understand when residents are shy about it
[9:35] Tao Takashi: because apparently everybody is of different gender than displayed
[9:35] Loydin Tripp: Like cooking and dog grooming
[9:36] Loydin Tripp: Well fast breaking news would be grief and exploits, bugs
[9:36] Kate Ash: currently search are limited to looking for residents, events, places.. it’ll be great to have a keyword search on profiles, etc..
[9:36] Blue Linden: To work with Philip’s reference that SL be analogous to a country, the gov’t only spends so much time disseminating info directly to the people…..private sources of info become prevalent
[9:36] Loydin Tripp: Detailed current reports
[9:36] Callipygian Christensen: I was meaning more a Search tab for distributing news and info
[9:36] Blue Linden: searchable news! that would be wonderful :)
[9:36] Foolish Frost: Ah, but Blue: That does not work here:
[9:36] Torley Linden: Calli, and perhaps to show each article as an item in that list, just like Classifieds and People queries?
[9:37] Torley Linden: and then when you click, it shows the news on the right?
[9:37] Katt Kongo: what ever happened to the idea of putting a news flash type of thing at the top of the main SL webpage?
[9:37] Tao Takashi: well, LL is still too silent..
[9:37] Tao Takashi: private channels can only do gossip
[9:37] Frans Charming: Right Torley
[9:37] Blue Linden makes note to push for NEWS tab in Search
[9:37] Foolish Frost: You are not a government, and it’s hard to get news info when you can’t actually investigate like in RL.
[9:37] Callipygian Christensen: Torley..yes…even have links..but put it where people notice it.Search is sued by everyone
[9:37] Torley Linden: come to think of it that could be worked up pretty quickly… Calli… if i suddenly started making Classifieds with news descriptions on the right, that might be a rough model of how it’d work
[9:37] Talarus Luan: But, instead, we have blogs, forums, etc.
[9:37] Frans Charming: News in search was discussed many roundtables ago, but never heard of again.
[9:37] Tao Takashi: well, they maybe should behave more like a government
[9:37] Loydin Tripp: The LL could provide a broadcasting system that had their and private networks
[9:37] Foolish Frost: As a private corp you have rights to privacy the govt never had. or should have.
[9:38] Torley Linden: we’re going to focus and simplify our delivery of information. our blog is our new platform for getting a variety of Linden voices out there–but sure to bookmark
[9:38] Loydin Tripp: Just like the real world
[9:38] Torley Linden: as easy as a trip to a webpage! :)
[9:38] Troy McLuhan: I like the new unified blog, much simpler
[9:38] Loydin Tripp: Not that easy with web, either or on the screen
[9:38] Torley Linden: yes, exactly Troy.
[9:38] Gus Plisskin: Some avoid politics and current events in FL. What if some really don’t want to hear SL news?
[9:38] Torley Linden: Loydin, look into the future, look at… points of convergence
[9:38] The Sojourner: is there a way to reply to a blog without having your email listed?
[9:38] Claudia Linden: give the blog some time to develop…
[9:38] Callipygian Christensen: Torley..the average SL addict isn’t leaving here to read there though..tempt them from within :)
[9:38] Torley Linden: we already have F1 Help in the viewer, Second Life itself…
[9:38] Torley Linden: again, convergence. :)
[9:38] Tao Takashi: Blue: yes, you might want to spread wider
[9:38] Loydin Tripp: and divergence
[9:38] Blue Linden: *nods
[9:39] Torley Linden: and i know with an easy tweak, you can also already show the blog inside the viewer–so we’re moving towards that!
[9:39] Tao Takashi: and you also might want to react sometimes faster ;)
[9:39] Talarus Luan has been unable to get that tweak to work, yet. :-/
[9:39] Katt Kongo volunteers
[9:39] Blue Linden: Walter Linden
[9:39] Torley Linden: Foolish, haha…
[9:39] Torley Linden: so some things are obviously in an exciting state of transition right now.
[9:39] Loydin Tripp: The problem is that SL moves so fast that we need a new metaphor
[9:40] Torley Linden: as i speak this, apparently the blog is being updated to show author names in the full posts–what timing!
[9:40] Tao Takashi: and e.g. I also would like to hear the LL point of view regarding some topics like the Cristiano-ban
[9:40] Loydin Tripp: Touchy
[9:40] Frans Charming: great, Torley. =)
[9:40] Robin Linden: Tao - we can’t discuss specific account decisions
[9:40] Tao Takashi: well, but then it’s an untransparent system
[9:41] Robin Linden: we can talk about the policies behind decisions, if you like
[9:41] Callipygian Christensen: Tao, exactly
[9:41] Robin Linden: it’s a privacy issue
[9:41] Tao Takashi: it’s not like justice should work..
[9:41] Loydin Tripp: I understand it as an account issue but what about what it reps as a policy?
[9:42] Tao Takashi: well, how can I defend myself when I think I got banned for wrong reasons?
[9:42] Talarus Luan: Contact (I think that is correct)
[9:43] Tao Takashi: yeah, but he said that he got no answer from that address IIRC
[9:43] Talarus Luan: That is unfortunate. :-/
[9:43] Kate Ash: could there be a life hearing before the ban is passed?
[9:43] Kate Ash: *live
[9:43] Blue Linden: does read all emails
[9:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: BTW, what is
[9:43] Foolish Frost: Who’s going to pay for the time in the hearing?
[9:44] Gus Plisskin: my sympathies to abuse-manager :)
[9:44] Blue Linden: I’m afraid policy prevents us from discussing another resident’s case….which is to their benefit
[9:44] Foolish Frost: You see, just like in RL, someone has to pay for such hearings. The lindens time is not free. Someone pays for it.
[9:44] Tao Takashi: as said, to me it’s too untransparent and leaves a feeling of uncertainty
[9:44] Blue Linden: But if they choose to talk about their experience, that’s fine
[9:44] Robin Linden: for what it’s worth, Cris did get a hearing and his suspension was considered.
[9:44] Becky Tardis: if one alt is banned is all alts banned?
[9:44] Torley Linden: here is more information about the ban process:
[9:45] Blue Linden: well Tao, consider if you were fairly banned for TOS violation….it’s not policy for us to broadcast that
[9:45] Blue Linden: nor would you likely want to see that on the front page
[9:45] Kate Ash: it could be another money sink for LL
[9:45] Loydin Tripp: What about when you are the victim of abuse?
[9:46] Tao Takashi: well, but it’s still the same place where I send my complaints about it to
[9:46] Blue Linden: Overall it’s a policy that directly benefits residents….as a transparency issue that’s a bit more subjective
[9:46] Tao Takashi: so no independent institution around
[9:46] Loydin Tripp: In a legal justice system it is the norm to air the case
[9:46] Tao Takashi: except the Mafia ;)
[9:46] Torley Linden: a problem i often see is a transference of experience based on generalizations. for example, one person hears about another person’s abuse situation by proxy and thinks the exact same thing will apply to them.
[9:46] Blue Linden: often there are two parties to an abuse case and it’s likely ONE of them doesn’t want their involvement revealed
[9:46] Torley Linden: not so, because each case is difference. it’s very context-sensitive.
[9:46] Loydin Tripp: Defendant has a right to face accuser
[9:46] Becky Tardis: Let me ask again just for my curiosity if one alt gets a perm-ban do all alts get a perm ban? no matter which ip they long on from
[9:47] Talarus Luan: I must admit some trepidation with respect to the abuse reporting process. Unfortunately, the canned responses sent as a result of reports do not give me much indication that action was taken.
[9:47] Loydin Tripp: And to be judged by one’s peers
[9:47] Callipygian Christensen: Talarus: and when the abuse goes on occurring, the optic is that nothing really is ever done
[9:47] Blue Linden: Talarus, there’s just no way to respond personally to everyone….the abuse queue can be rather huge
[9:47] Claudia Linden: question noted becky….we’ll get there
[9:47] Torley Linden: Becky generally yes, we do our best in the case of egregious offenders.
[9:47] Foolish Frost: That’s RL. Can I point out a difference between RL and SL. No sarcasm?
[9:48] Loydin Tripp: What if we had a system that took that burden off LL?
[9:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Privacy vs. transparency.
[9:48] Foolish Frost: In RL, you never really know what happened in a crime.
[9:48] Loydin Tripp: Select juries
[9:48] Talarus Luan: For example, we’ve reported griefing several times in our sims, but have no idea if the perpetrators were even talked to, let alone had actions taken. Now, I would not expect a blow-by-blow, but some kind of …
[9:48] Loydin Tripp: Try cases
[9:48] Robin Linden: is the question about getting answers to abuse reports, or about having a way to find out what the decision was, or about being able to refute the decision?
[9:48] Robin Linden: or all of the above? :)
[9:48] Tao Takashi: in SL I also might not know what happened..
[9:48] Torley Linden: obviously Becky there are methods to circumvent like logging on from a friend’s house–but with human nature, people manifest behaviors repetitively and it’s not hard to tell when someone is causing a lot of trouble.
[9:48] Gus Plisskin: Loydin: LL has selected juries. They’ve enlist residents for judging whether a final permaban is called for.
[9:48] Foolish Frost: You can add evidence, but you ALWAYS have a chance of extenuating circumstance…
[9:49] Tao Takashi: I get some money from X for hosting events but then I run away and get abuse reported
[9:49] Loydin Tripp: I was abuse and told it was resolved but I do not know what happened
[9:49] Callipygian Christensen selects ALl of the above for 100 Alex
[9:49] Tao Takashi: then i say I got that money for something else
[9:49] Blue Linden: There is a system in place regarding bans that gives the final decision to the residents….Peer review presents basic discipline record with no names
[9:49] Loydin Tripp: How does that protect me?
[9:49] Blue Linden: Then the randomly chosen residents act as Jury
[9:49] Jeska Linden: The Police Blotter does provide that information Talarus
[9:49] Loydin Tripp: Yes Blue
[9:49] Foolish Frost: In SL, they have private logs of EXACTLY what happens in a sim…
[9:49] Loydin Tripp: Its too slow
[9:49] Loydin Tripp: And too small
[9:49] Jeska Linden: It tells you when and where the even took place, what the violation was and what the action was.
[9:49] Foolish Frost: So in SL, the court system has been replaced by a bit on omnisentience.
[9:50] Loydin Tripp: By the time I was told there was no report to be seen
[9:50] Talarus Luan: Actually, Jeska, I have monitored the blotter repeatedly for several weeks after our big reports, and have yet to see any mention of our situation.
[9:50] Loydin Tripp: Same here no mention
[9:50] Becky Tardis: (I have never seen any my abuse reports on the police blotter, half the time 2 weeks as passed before I get a resolve email)
[9:50] Blue Linden: Exactly FF, some things don’t need a jury. Chat logs clearly indicate some forms of abuse
[9:50] Tao Takashi: so if they have that Logs than we come to another point which is called privacy ;)
[9:50] Loydin Tripp: What Becky said
[9:50] Foolish Frost: Er. I have to agree… I have never seen my reports mentioned when I get a resolved email.
[9:50] Talarus Luan: I know that the blotter does not represent all actions, as Torley aptly described in the forums concerning the subject.
[9:51] Jeska Linden: Abuse reports aren’t on the blotter - only when there is action taken.
[9:51] The Sojourner: Jeska, for a while we on another sim we were sending almost daily abuse reports about a neighbor who was griefing and even tho we checked the police blotter.. I never saw mention
[9:51] The Sojourner: never got a resolved email either
[9:51] Gus Plisskin: Some of this could be fixed by increasing the size of the blotter. Or basing it on days since the resolved message was sent
[9:51] Loydin Tripp: Then we nee better tech to discern the meaningless from the real
[9:51] Torley Linden: Gus, would you say it’d be useful to show a more complete archive for the blotter–greater than the most 25 recent it shows?
[9:51] Foolish Frost: Or better yet!
[9:51] Talarus Luan: Then, if that were the case, no action has ever been taken on any of the Isle of Wyrms major abuse incidents, which saddens me greatly. :-/
[9:52] Tao Takashi: ok, maybe some other concern: how much is actually logged and can be used for whatever?
[9:52] Foolish Frost: Send the blotter entry with the email!
[9:52] Becky Tardis: just something saying if punishment was placed.. or claim was invalid would go a long way
[9:52] Torley Linden: Becky: you feel that’d help manage expectations better and provide clearer communication?
[9:52] Loydin Tripp: Send the blotter with the email is a good idea
[9:52] Becky Tardis: no details on the punishment
[9:52] Talarus Luan: Aye, that is my concern. Are we reporting the right things?
[9:52] Becky Tardis: yep
[9:52] Frans Charming: It would be helpful if you could search by sim on the blotter.
[9:52] Talarus Luan: It’s a feedback mechanism, nothing more.
[9:52] Loydin Tripp: By sim would be good first step
[9:53] Becky Tardis: give a vague feedback
[9:53] Claudia Linden: That’s a good suggestion Frans…
[9:53] Foolish Frost: Feedback is ALWAYS good in a community. It’s how we figure out where we stand.
[9:53] Becky Tardis: but feedback
[9:53] Talarus Luan: If I am not reporting something correctly, or if it is not something worthy a report, I would like to know, so I and the rest of the staff don’t waste our time filling them out, and yours filling your inbox with useless reports.
[9:53] Gus Plisskin: Torley: Limiting the time the blotter reports are around makes sense. But it should be sync’ed better
[9:53] Torley Linden: Gus: sync’ed better how? :)
[9:54] Loydin Tripp: There should also be punishment for using the system in false warnings
[9:54] Blue Linden: same goes for bug reports
[9:54] The Sojourner: yes
[9:54] Frans Charming: I agree Blue
[9:54] Gus Plisskin: Blotter entries could stay 2 or 3 days after the resolved message is sent
[9:54] Torley Linden: Loydin, very funny you bring that up… a LONG time ago in the Community Standards, it did use to say that!
[9:54] Tao Takashi: police blotter t-shirt which the guy needs to wear and cannot be removed
[9:54] Tao Takashi: finished is your trust system ;)
[9:54] Torley Linden: that you could be subject to disciplinary action for excessively sending false abuse reports.
[9:54] Becky Tardis: and there is only 25 plotter reports.. sometimes it fills up in 24 hrs, some times it lasts 2 weeks
[9:54] Loydin Tripp: Like the english stocks
[9:54] Blue Linden: Loydin, hard to determine false reports as being malicious or just an unfamiliarity with the system
[9:55] Loydin Tripp: The shame factor:)
[9:55] Callipygian Christensen: yes Loydin :)
[9:55] Loydin Tripp: I( loved the story of sending the guy to the cornfield
[9:55] Tao Takashi: for some it will be the proud factor ;)
[9:55] Torley Linden: Loydin: That, to many people, made for great dramatic narrative.
[9:55] Loydin Tripp: Well not so proud when everyone knows and stops working with them
[9:55] Frans Charming: Well, blue if someone is sending to much i would think someone would tell them, and they will stopm if it is malicious they will start again at some point, just keep a record.
[9:56] Blue Linden: yes, the cornfield remains a fairly unique punishment hehe
[9:56] Gus Plisskin: hah
[9:56] Tao Takashi: the other t-shirt guys will.. and the Mafia
[9:56] Torley Linden: Without a premature escape, however.
[9:56] Torley Linden: So many photographs here carry a lot of emotional weight and memories, and generate reactions.
[9:56] Loydin Tripp: There is also Branding or the Scarlet Letter
[9:56] Frans Charming: heh
[9:57] Loydin Tripp: Maybe a big floating sign above them, I am an Ass!
[9:57] Gus Plisskin: The Scarlet Letter? Maybe for X-rated things in PG sims? :)
[9:57] Tao Takashi: some have sat dishes instead of heads
[9:57] Tao Takashi: (I’ve heard)
[9:57] Foolish Frost: Oh! Oh! Can I get a scarlet letter?
[9:57] Frans Charming: It would become a badge of honor
[9:57] Callipygian Christensen: loydin: the scarlet letter here would don’t go there
[9:57] Torley Linden: Yes–what Frans said, reverse psychology… some may work contrarian in order to earn such demerits.
[9:58] Tao Takashi: ok, maybe coming back to the privacy thing: What actually is logged and how is it used and who has access to it? would be questions I am interested in :)
[9:58] Loydin Tripp: I understand th pride effect but that does not help in a social group, they would be shunned
[9:58] Blue Linden: Hahah torley…that’s actually not uncommon on TG
[9:58] Becky Tardis: how about giving us the ability to ban people from our lands without a clean record
[9:58] Torley Linden: I need to spend more time in TG!
[9:58] Blue Linden: that’s interesting Becky
[9:58] Loydin Tripp: Becky super idea
[9:58] Tao Takashi: Torley: me, too ;)
[9:58] Foolish Frost: You have no privacy in SL. It is fact.
[9:59] Loydin Tripp: The profile would have your Rap Sheet
[9:59] Becky Tardis: of course that may indirectly review someones record
[9:59] Blue Linden: That would clearly violate privacy policy….putting discipline history on profile @_@
[9:59] Loydin Tripp: Gus another good idea
[9:59] Becky Tardis: combine mine and Gus idea
[9:59] Torley Linden: Tao, we have extensive server records for everyday things. For example, if someone rezzes 10,000 prims in a sandbox, we’ll have a record of that. We also do keep chat logs for an undisclosed amount of time, esp. for cases of harassment and nastiness.
[9:59] Gus Plisskin: the function might violate privacy as well then
[9:59] Tao Takashi: Foolish: that would be very bad then
[10:00] Blue Linden: Let me give one good example of a why privacy policy works before I try to wrap this up
[10:00] Torley Linden: And some of the related answers to that have come up on SL Answers before. We also have anti-fraud mechanisms in place too.
[10:00] Becky Tardis: land ban for someone having a warning or suspension in the last x days
[10:00] Loydin Tripp: If you abuse and assault you give up privacy
[10:00] Frans Charming: As it stand i don’t believe alts are banned, or share a suspension record. You can’t put social pressure on a person if all his alts aren’t linked.
[10:00] Tao Takashi: Torley: ok, so I better don’t say anything bad about you because you will hate me then and suspend me for no reason? ;)
[10:00] Blue Linden: One resident permabanned from SL….gets a 2nd chance with inception of teen grid and becomes outstanding community leader
[10:00] Torley Linden: Tao: I would not do that, you are too nice. :) *smile*
[10:01] Blue Linden: people do change
[10:01] Tao Takashi: ok, but when it’s somebody else? :)
[10:01] Blue Linden: would be terrible to print his record on profile
[10:01] Gus Plisskin: And some people have nice alts and naughty alts
[10:01] Talarus Luan: Aye, agreed, Blue.
[10:01] Loydin Tripp: People do change, some need encouragement
[10:01] Torley Linden: Frans, actually, alt abuse does count–especially if someone is suspended on one account and then griefs on another linked account. Liaisons have been coming down hard lately on some things *just* like that!
[10:01] Blue Linden: before we say goodbye today……I wanted to ask if anyone here planned on going to SLCC.
[10:01] Torley Linden: I like to see reformations in personality though. I am proof of that, if anything. Believe it or not. ;)
[10:01] Blue Linden: Likely a bit more difficult for Euros of course -_-
[10:01] Gus Plisskin: I’m going to SLCC, Blue
[10:01] Tao Takashi: well, I just can say that I don’t like that chat log thing
[10:02] Tao Takashi: so we need some encryption
[10:02] Jesse Linden: I’ll be there, Blue ;)
[10:02] Blue Linden: Cool Gus :)
[10:02] Callipygian Christensen: I’d love to but can’t
[10:02] Blue Linden: yay Jesse lol
[10:02] Foolish Frost: Perhaps, But blue, you always have th option of a 3 strikes rule. Let’s be honest: While anyone can change, you have to pay the price for your actions, and protect the community at large.
[10:02] Jesse Linden: ha
[10:02] Blue Linden: FF, 3 strike rule is the norm on Teen Grid
[10:02] Torley Linden: OMG Blue tell Foolish all about how that works on TG!
[10:02] Torley Linden: Yayzerama!
[10:02] Becky Tardis: someone isn’t going to change overnight
[10:02] Callipygian Christensen: However, when SLNN becomes reality..I want to be the chopper reporter for high speed chases
[10:03] Tom Bukowski: HA
[10:03] Talarus Luan: Well, even in RL, once you have paid your price to society, you are (mostly) free of the consequences, at least as far as the government is concerned.
[10:03] Torley Linden: Becky: Yeah, for me, took years–still growing and learning here, appreciating all the wonderful blessings I come across. Life’s too short not to be happy. :D
[10:03] Blue Linden: Yep….speak softly (make sure they understand the rules) then carry a big stick (only 3 strikes once WE know THEY know better)
[10:03] Frans Charming: I’m going to SLCC>
[10:03] Loydin Tripp: I want to be the guy with stylish haircut:)
[10:03] Blue Linden: Cool Frans :)
[10:03] Gus Plisskin: For next time: Is the TG version of justice different?
[10:03] Blue Linden: hahah FF
[10:03] Foolish Frost: FF, ambush reporter!
[10:03] Callipygian Christensen: Tolrey can be the weather girl
[10:03] Tao Takashi: moo should do the celebs news
[10:03] Torley Linden: Foolish that sounds SCANDALOUS like something for the THE NATIONAL SLENQUIRER. o.O
[10:03] Blue Linden: We already have gonzo journalism, why not
[10:04] Loydin Tripp: Oh god paparazzi?
[10:04] Gus Plisskin: Loydin: lmao
[10:04] Talarus Luan: Heh. I don’t give folks that much of a chance. If they know better, and I KNOW they know better, they get the full boot. :)
[10:04] Torley Linden: And today, slightly overcast with particle ion storms, texture rezzing is clear!
[10:04] Blue Linden: yes, and pepperoni…get your pizza, behind me, before it’s all gone ;)
[10:04] Tao Takashi: the god mode actually prevents paparazzi
[10:04] Callipygian Christensen: loyd, with camera options the paparrazzi in rl only dream of lol
[10:04] Becky Tardis: I wasn’t talking about a going far back just a few weeks or month back with the land ban
[10:04] Torley Linden: Talarus: That’s an apt way to put it.
[10:04] Torley Linden: I am so obsessed with using Ctrl-Alt-Shift combinations to camscan. It’s an art, truly useful for all your beautiful photography needs.
[10:04] Talarus Luan: Ignorance is forgiveable; stupidity is not. :)
[10:05] Torley Linden: *holds down Ctrl-Alt-Shift and drags back and forth*
[10:05] Loydin Tripp: Yes Luan
[10:05] Callipygian Christensen: Torley..yes!
[10:05] Blue Linden: we’ve covered some very relevant and interesting topics here today, and we’ll be bringing many of them up for discussion here in the office…….
[10:05] Tao Takashi: camspam?
[10:05] Loydin Tripp: Especially repeaters
[10:05] Torley Linden: Tao: Camscan = Camera Scanning.
[10:05] Blue Linden: ….but you’ve been here an hour so I will now shut off the stasis field and you may leave if you choose ;)
[10:05] Tao Takashi: I know, jk :)
[10:05] Torley Linden: :D
[10:05] Frans Charming: One last thing, we the residents aren’t able to put social pressure on alt griefer to behave. And that is what LL wants the most, that we find social solutions.
[10:05] Torley Linden: Blue is a benevolent overlord.
[10:06] Gus Plisskin: …must escape stasis field…
[10:06] Loydin Tripp: Yes Frans
[10:06] Talarus Luan is immune to stasis fields. :P
[10:06] Katt Kongo: all hail the mighty Blue :)
[10:06] Loydin Tripp: That’s what i mean
[10:06] Torley Linden: Frans have you talked to Travis Lambert and Mera Pixel about their networked ban solution? It’s a social solution on the rise!
[10:06] Loydin Tripp: Blue by name only, I am blue
[10:06] Sonic Winger shouts: I only came here to stop the green text!
[10:06] Blue Linden: Frans, the ability to ban residents with no sign up info is part of a solution but we will definitely be looking for further tools to empower residents
[10:07] Torley Linden: In the last few weeks alone a lot of experience-enhancing measures were added that were asked for, for the better part of two years or more.
[10:07] Tao Takashi: like a full fledged justice system ;)
[10:07] Gus Plisskin: Would the TOS allow something like a resident-run Blackhole list of griefers?
[10:07] Torley Linden: What a relief.
[10:07] Torley Linden: Gus: Yes… that’s what Travis and Mera are effectively doing.
[10:07] Sonic Winger: I don’t want to get sucked into it.
[10:07] Torley Linden: If it’s your land, it’s your choice to choose who you ban from it. The world is getting so big.
[10:07] Blue Linden: Gus, there is such a thing….residents creating blacklist of griefers and distributing
[10:07] Loydin Tripp: If you put more of the judging and enforcement into hands of residents it will take pressure off LL
[10:08] Tao Takashi: Torley: But then LL should create more roads so I can still navigate over the land ;)
[10:08] Gus Plisskin: Blue& Torley: cool. I’ll check into it
[10:08] Torley Linden: Loydin, there’s a planned move towards that–that’s another trend that’s going to creep out of the side alley into the mainstream.
[10:08] Blue Linden: as long as it’s names and not privacy violations like chatlogs, people are free to ban residents from their land for any or no reason
[10:08] Loydin Tripp: Like having courthouses and juries
[10:08] Foolish Frost: Simple way todo that: Ban systems with access to a main web server: They sense someone, send the name, and see if it’s on the ban list.
[10:08] Torley Linden: Certainly on some private islands, I have already seen local courts. More in a roleplaying capacity–*however* it does point to promising things to come.
[10:08] Tao Takashi: I think the forums should decide whom to ban
[10:08] Blue Linden: hehe, do people use the roads regularly…? I see so few traffic jams
[10:08] Talarus Luan: I don’t know the specifics of the Blackhole list idea, but I do hope it comes with some kind of judiciary committee which is fair about considering requests to be removed from said list.
[10:08] Loydin Tripp: The brings a system of advocates and mediation
[10:09] Sonic Winger shouts: I always thought you lindens were serious all the time, but I guess not.
[10:09] Blue Linden: heh Toa….then there would REALLY be no traffic
[10:09] Loydin Tripp: I love roads and paths
[10:09] Torley Linden: Talarus, talk to Travis and Mera for the goods. I can’t namedrop them enough, they’re champions.
[10:09] Tao Takashi: Blue: well, if all the parcels are private then roads might be handy to get from A to B
[10:09] Tao Takashi: Blue: besides, it looks better
[10:09] Torley Linden: Their list is centralized and decentralized at the same time… they’ve come up with some really nice methods of approaching the problem.
[10:09] Loydin Tripp: I am trying to build a Trans Coastal Path in the South Continent
[10:09] Blue Linden: true Tao!
[10:09] Talarus Luan: Will do, Torley. :)
[10:09] Troy McLuhan: What is the status of SL-based mediators and dispute resolvers?
[10:09] Torley Linden: Heya Xyrcies–what a unique name.
[10:09] Foolish Frost: Oh, I have one suggestion: for mute?
[10:09] Tao Takashi: and when I have 4 huge towers on 4 sides of my house then it might help me to get in ;)
[10:09] Xyrcies Chadbourne: ty and hello torley
[10:10] Zi Ree: *giggles*
[10:10] Blue Linden: Hi Xyr :)
[10:10] Xyrcies Chadbourne: was wondering where that broadcast was coming from lol
[10:10] Xyrcies Chadbourne: hiya blue
[10:10] Xyrcies Chadbourne: Ive been crackin up listening to you guys
[10:10] Foolish Frost: Can we have mute not only kill chat and sound, but also the muted residents objects? And have it mute their PARTICLES?
[10:10] Tao Takashi: and their smell
[10:10] Torley Linden: We are on a path to true mute! James has been adding all sorts of mutey goodness and more and more is coming. True audio mute will be the next major step, and OHHH did I mention that Callum is separating inworld sounds from streaming music?
[10:10] Becky Tardis: good idea
[10:10] Blue Linden: FF, I believe that’s possible. I agree it would be a very handy addition!
[10:10] Torley Linden: GREAT for Live Music performances… that is coming soon!!!
[10:10] Blue Linden: I’ll look into that
[10:11] Sonic Winger: mute?
[10:11] Sonic Winger: /
[10:11] Torley Linden: So you can listen in peace to a music concert without the clack-clack-clack of typing or the / in front of every line.
[10:11] Robin Linden: hey hey
[10:11] Frans Charming: Awesome Torley.
[10:11] Callipygian Christensen: ability to mute inwolrd sounds would be heavenly
[10:11] Foolish Frost: You want to mute live music performers?
[10:11] Robin Linden: just off the press…
[10:11] Blue Linden: muting particles….although it IS possible to shut them off at this point
[10:11] Robin Linden: audio sounds and systems sounds are parting ways…
[10:11] Loydin Tripp: Is there a way to see one IM stream at a time?
[10:11] Sonic Winger: Ah, that I like.
[10:11] Tao Takashi: Torley: you mute just the sound or also the chat text then?
[10:11] Jesse Linden: yay
[10:11] Becky Tardis: about about the ability to for a parcel to mute anyone that isn’t in the land group for events
[10:12] Frans Charming: you can mute all particles with view->beacons->hide particles
[10:12] Zi Ree: me mute.. by write.. sound key.. in cache.. with file length 0 :P
[10:12] Torley Linden: Tao: Well in the muting controls, eventually actual true muting of played sound clips will be added in *addition* to chat text.
[10:12] Blue Linden: lol
[10:12] Foolish Frost: I know. I just want to get rid of annoyances without ruining the look of a sim to me.
[10:12] Tao Takashi: so what about applause then? Will that be muted, too?
[10:12] Torley Linden: That is the roadmap. As you can see the pieces are coming along, one after another. We love to see progress and present it to the Residents, for we know how verily important it is to the community.
[10:12] Blue Linden: FF, I think that’s a logical extension of where ban tools have been evolving
[10:13] Torley Linden: Tao: You can *choose* to mute it. That’s the beauty.

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