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Town Hall 12/10/03/8pm

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Town Hall Chat Log 8pm PST 12/10

(Philip had already started talking when logger came back from crashing.)

Philip Linden: and there will still be stipends, event payments, dwell payments, and reputation bonuses.
Philip Linden: So those who are selling stuff, or holding events,
Philip Linden: We have basically added the ability to get paid $USD for earnings and value if you like,
Philip Linden: and the ability to buy land with $USD if you like.
Philip Linden: Clearly this is a big change and worthy of great debate.
Philip Linden: will still be able to pay for extra land with L$.

Icon Serpentine: heh... ne advancements on groups and prim allocations?

Philip Linden: Also important to note is that we will have a grace period... until Jan 12,
Philip Linden: before any land fee payments happen.
Philip Linden: We wanted to get everyone thinking about this early, but probably are guilty of giving too little info .
Philip Linden: You will have lots of time to think about what you'd like to do.
Philip Linden: We are sending mail tonight to folks who own land beyond their allocations,
Philip Linden: and will send a schedule of L$ land fee costs out before end of the week.
Philip Linden: So hopefully this clears up some questions.
Philip Linden: Lets go to yours and get other stuff answered...
Philip Linden: Haney?
Philip Linden: and the ability to buy land with $USD if you like.
Philip Linden: While Haney cuts and pastes...
Philip Linden: Also lost in the excitement over costs are several pretty cool changes in the 1.2 code,
Philip Linden: The FPS at events like this will be much faster.
Philip Linden: which we will try and get out by the 22nd.

Carnildo Greenacre: Will it also increase stability at events? My computer hates crowds

Philip Linden: Goal is to not drop below about 10fps, regardless of AV count.
Philip Linden: Carnildo, hopefully. Many AV related bug fixes.

Philip Linden: Also, there will be some very nice usability and UI improvements,
Philip Linden: including a panel that pops up to show system messages rather than the console text and constant dialogs.

Corwin Weber: So now that catherine is back, do we direct questions to her or to Haney?

Philip Linden: Sorry my fault.. Q's to Catherine.
Philip Linden: Shes'

Catherine Linden: Dear Neil, You may have noticed a lot of discussion in the forums, in-world and in your inbox over the last two days - that's because big changes are in the works at Second Life. Linden Lab has made some significant changes to the way residents will in

Philip Linden: She's there in the
Philip Linden: Green shirt by Haney.
Philip Linden: We will also have a sort of 'inbox' for stuff you've gotten into inventory.
Philip Linden: This is very cool cause it allows us never to pop open the inventory window
Philip Linden: when you receive things.

Catherine Linden: Jsecure Hanks: How fast from implementation do you feel all prim usage will be curbed to reflect land ownership

Philip Linden: Instead you can see what is new when you oipen it.
Philip Linden: OK... the Qs
Philip Linden: We will send mail out to everyone who is over parcel limits and give a grace period.
Philip Linden: There will also be options to return stuff on your land to owners, by owner name.
Philip Linden: So that should help.

Catherine Linden: jemma Flora: does all owned land have to be in same sim

Philip Linden: No owned land can be anywhere in the world.
Philip Linden: You will see a list of your parcels and their size in a new UI window.

Catherine Linden: MaryJane Sunshine: When exactly will taxes be eliminated? before or after 1.2 is up

Philip Linden: Taxes will run until 12.22, so I guess one more time.

Catherine Linden: Maxx Monde: From 20,000 ft perspective, can you offer your thoughts on how 1.2 and other subsequent improvements will bring a true paralell reality to fruition?

Philip Linden: Good question.
Philip Linden: We have made these changes because SL seems to be straining at limits of the purely internal economy...
Philip Linden: For example,
Philip Linden: it isn't possible to build something BEFORE you get the L$ to pay the taxes,
Philip Linden: which is lame. Asking Haney for land doesn't scale at all.
Philip Linden: In some cases it makes sense to be able to buy land and build with the hope that
Philip Linden: revenues, dwell, etc will justify the project.
Philip Linden: This is an important part of any real system.
Philip Linden: So that is one way this helps.
Philip Linden: Additionally the ability to make real money allows the scale of projects to jump beyond what we can do today.
Philip Linden: It feels like we have some incredible work here...
Philip Linden: very close to a compelling second reality,
Philip Linden: but without, for example, the ability to truly make a living in SL,
Philip Linden: We will likely get stuck.
Philip Linden: So high level, we want the world to get even more intense content,
Philip Linden: and we want prices that let more casual/curious folks to be able to at least check us out.
Philip Linden: Hence the lower prices and the one-time option.

Catherine Linden: Jsecure Hanks: How fast from implementation do you feel all prim usage will be curbed to reflect land ownership

Philip Linden: We've seen that one already C

Catherine Linden: Icon Serpentine: 2 questions: 1 - Will members be able to take an active role in deciding a solution to group resource allocation.

Philip Linden: Well let me review groups... the answer I think to your question is yes:

Catherine Linden: Icon Serpentine: 2 - Will there be any improvements to lsl (ie: nested arrays, higher memory allocation, or dynamic sequence processing.)

Philip Linden: Group members will be able to elect to contribute land to the group.
Philip Linden: This won't be ready 12/22 but soon after.
Philip Linden: So you will be able to decide what you want to help your group to afford.
Philip Linden: Similar mechanism to 1.1, but with you choosing to give rather than the officer deed / everyone pays model.

Catherine Linden: Aurelie Starseeker: Concerning when SL switches over to 1.2, the worth of our land (say for example $15,000), will that amount be reimbursed to us, as for me (in my 1/16th), the land i have will now be free of cost. Confused about that :P

Philip Linden: Buying land already in world will work as it does now... you buy for L$.
Philip Linden: If you mean what about the 'release' value you would get if you let your land go,
Philip Linden: we are thinking about some credits for that but need to model it to be fair.
Philip Linden: I don't have an answer yet.

Philip Linden: Under new system, land parcels will sometimes be bought at auction for either L$ or $USD.
Philip Linden: We will let your guys conduct auctions as well.

Catherine Linden: Kex Godel: Q: As SL continues to grow, will LL allow commercial[businesses to buy land and build marketing campaigns within SL?

Philip Linden: We will allow anyone to buy land,
Philip Linden: But it is important to note that the auctions will fairly price this at market.
Philip Linden: I don't think that we are at a stage where big commercial purchases will happen.

Hank Ramos: What about RL taxes, laws, and such?

Philip Linden: We will regulate the growth of land to match the subscriber base... and on that note:
Philip Linden: We will add somewhere netween 3 and 10 sims at 12.22release.
Philip Linden: So there will be more land to get then.

Catherine Linden: Liberty Tesla: How will you prevent RL$ land buyers from crowding out L$ land buyers? Will sim capacity be increased enough to accommodate both?

Philip Linden: Again, I suspect that this will not happen. We will conduct both L$ and $USD auctions in a blaanced way,
Philip Linden: and will not add sims too much beyond resident growth.
Philip Linden: So we don't want to the world to be huge and empty.

Catherine Linden: Carnildo Greenacre: Question for Philip: How will the new limits affect projects that aren't tied to land, such as birds that are free to wander the world?

Philip Linden: Carnildo your work has inspired us here!

Zebulon Starseeker: *works shotgun bolt*

Philip Linden: We will make sure that there are 'extra' allocations in all sims that allow objects to hang around like your birds.
Philip Linden: It is the same problem with vehicle.s.... there will be a budget for these sorts of prims.
Philip Linden: So yes, we will solve it. I love the birds... I designed the original ones for those who remember alpha!

Catherine Linden: Ananda Sandgrain: Any chance we'll see different sizes of sims! Like 1024 m for vehicle and country sims, or 128m for dense city shopping sims?

Philip Linden: Hmm... good question. Maybe. We can easily do that. Also we can run multiple sims on one machine.
Philip Linden: No immediate plans though, but perhaps something to try.

Catherine Linden: Baccara Rhodes: What happens to people like me who are in businesses where they constantly have to put down temporary prims (for parties and such) We will be effectively out of business

Philip Linden: Ingie it isn't going to be free to buy it. You allocation means no ongoing fees.
Philip Linden: Similar to today.

Catherine Linden: Zygo Slate: Will we be repaid for land taken because over our allocation?

Philip Linden: Baccara...

Baccara Rhodes: yes Philip

Philip Linden: You will be able to build on other people's land, so if there is an area for parties that someone owns,
Philip Linden: You can build on it the same as today. There is the same ability to let others build on your parcels.

Catherine Linden: Maxx Monde: Question about primitives capacity - is this mainly a function of bandwidth limitations, or a combination of the rendering technology coupled with server processing capacity? Do you see these limits effectively reaching a plateau or expanding

Baccara Rhodes: Its not the area I am questioning
Baccara Rhodes: Its the prim count

Philip Linden: Primitives are mostly a function of rendering speed...
Philip Linden: we are increasing the limits beyond 10,000 for 1.2, and correctly accounting for public land, etc.
Philip Linden: So the prim capacity will be higher. B, I think that will deal some with your issue as well.
Philip Linden: The capacity for a large area, like for a party, will be high.

Catherine Linden: Corwin Weber: Also, I noticed in the posting of the log of the previous meeting that you mentioned having servers in various locations for a truly distributed world.... does this mean that LL may be hiring more people, and outside of the San Francisco area

Philip Linden: LL server backend is distributed.... indeed someday we hope to have you guys running them.
Philip Linden: We have all our servers in SF right now, but will expand to other metro areas and international as soon as we need to.

Catherine Linden: MaryJane Sunshine: What will happen to old builds & plots of land made by older non-active players that are above & beyond what you are giving to them? Will the builds be deleted & land be released to public?

Philip Linden: There will be a grace period, and then we will probably return objects to inventory,
Philip Linden: and set the land to a temporary linden owner and then auction it.

Catherine Linden: Oz Spade: Q: What made you decide to go with fixing the FPS rather than upgrade to Havoc 2? I thought Havoc 2 was going to help FPS too.

Philip Linden: Havoc 2 will help with complex physical movement, vehicles, etc.
Philip Linden: Right now, like at this event for example,
Philip Linden: rendering load is the problem. And we have substantially improved it.
Philip Linden: We thought this was most important.

Catherine Linden: Ananda Sandgrain: Are there any plans to support more theme communities? Or specialized sims like shopping malls?

Philip Linden: We are working on a shopping sim, yes. See Haney for more.

Catherine Linden: Yuki Sunshine: With the new land = number of prims equation, what will happen in areas where there is a Linden store that takes up a big chunk of prims, like Avatar Central

Philip Linden: Themed communities where we pay for the land will be the same prob
Philip Linden: as today - we need to be incredibly fair about any advantages we give like that.

Catherine Linden: Obscuro Valkyrie: how does the purchase of an entire Sim work and can one apply the land they currently hold if lets say they are a LT member?

Philip Linden: We will try and discount the linden prims throughout... we are modeling that right now.
Philip Linden: Just need to be careful to keep FPS up. Sims can handle lots more objects otherwise.

Catherine Linden: Ananda Sandgrain: Will we still be able to rez whatever we want in the sandbox or vehicle parks?

Philip Linden: Yes the sandboxes and vehicles parks and morris, etc, will be the same as before...
Philip Linden: indeed better as there won't be rez costs, which are a bummer for newer peopl.

Catherine Linden: Mistress Midnight: I don't myself own any land; i only build on the group land i pay taxes on how will the land to objects be allocated in this instance

Philip Linden: Group land will have the same prim limits, and as I mentioned will be paid for by contributions from the members.
Philip Linden: You will be able to decide what to give in square meters to your group.
Philip Linden: $195 is the monthly cost for owning 65536 square meters.

Catherine Linden: Oz Spade: Another Q: Whats the purpose of the 195 for an entire region if most new land will be auctioned off?

Philip Linden: The purchase price is whatever you sell it for, or whatever you pay at auction.
Philip Linden: The fees are to cover resource costs, and as I mentioned can be paid in L$ too.

Catherine Linden: Maxx Monde: Was one of the improvements aimed at eliminating the top-heavy concentration of resources? If someone accumulates a lot of wealth again in the new system, will another iteration of rules be necessary?

Philip Linden: Good question. Any vital economy is generally 'top heavy'.... this is best studied in complex
Philip Linden: systems by the emergence of 'power law' distributions.
Philip Linden: So in a way they are healthy, unless too peaked.
Philip Linden: What is most important is than economic forces (whether L$ or $USD) control distribution,
Philip Linden: because that is always most fair and efficient.

Catherine Linden: Icon Serpentine: What about prim density for themed cities? I would gladly pay for my share of land to help keep a themed project going, but it isn't going to do much good if all the prims are spread amongst tracts of land parcels.

Philip Linden: Of this meeting? Catherine and Haney can clip and post to forums...
Philip Linden: Icon I don't understand... larger plots of land naturally allow higher density,
Philip Linden: so I think this is OK.
Philip Linden: Your sim budget will cover all land in the entire sim.
Philip Linden: That you own.

Michael Mifflin: Will places like Gibson be abolished?

Catherine Linden: Shadow Weaver: Will the Rating costs be abolished or will that continue along with Upload Costs of Music and Textures?

Philip Linden: upload costs will remain, along with parcel listing fees.
Philip Linden: I believe they will be the same prices.

Catherine Linden: AnneDroid Lily: has a squaremeter-to-prim ratio ben decided yet?

Philip Linden: we have not calculated the prim/meter ratio yet. It will be higher than 10,000/65536, as I mentioned.
Philip Linden: I don't know how much higher. It will vary with amount of public land in sim.

Catherine Linden: Obscuro Valkyrie: Is the entire Sim purchase part of the new alotted Sims which will sell for real $ and is there going to be a list to get on for 1 ..please explain how one can be bought after then Obscuro Valkyrie: the 12/22 dare Obscuro Valkyrie: date

Philip Linden: We don't have a 'whole sim' program yet. All the land will be sold at auction.
Philip Linden: That may, however, include whole sims, but we will still auction them.
Philip Linden: That is what is fair, as opposed to first-come-first-served.

Catherine Linden: Ok, I think that's it!

Philip Linden: Land fees may be paid with L$ which are ongoing fees, just like land taxes today.
Philip Linden: Buying land may be done with L$ or sometimes $USD. From other residents it will work exactly as it does today.
Philip Linden: I'm happy to take a few more or just chat.

Catherine Linden: MaryJane Sunshine: You've said land can be purchased with L$ is this a one time fee?
Catherine Linden: Philip, did you have anything else you wanted to add?

Philip Linden: I think this has been a pretty good list of Q's.... glad to go deeper on some stuff.

Ananda Sandgrain: Are you committing to 1/16th of a sim for lifetimers forever?

Philip Linden: Yes lifers get 1/16 for the duration of their membership.

Bonecrusher Slate: Phillip- if we don't get an email from LL, does that mean we are NOT over on our land as of now? Or are all users getting an email no matter what?

Philip Linden: I don't know what the precise definition of ones lifetime is but whatever that is.

Lordfly Digeridoo: the duration of the membership is lifetime still thoug, right philip? :P

Philip Linden: Yes bonecrusher, for now if you don't get one that should mean you are not over.
Philip Linden: I may have madee this unclear in 5pm meeting...
Philip Linden: Let me say something else to clarify...

Lordfly Digeridoo: ooh, stupid non-essential question... is havok 2.0 still coming in 1.2?

Philip Linden: Those current users who are not lifetime and choose to continue on the $10/month plan
Philip Linden: get 1024 meters of land.
Philip Linden: Those who choose to stop paying (becoming basic access users, like the $10 new users will be), do not get land.
Philip Linden: I'm not sure I made that clear at the last meeting.

Edkc56 Gardner: will there still be referal fees and what will be accepted as payment for USD$

Jack Cook: will there be a chance to buy lifetime membership after the new release?

Corwin Weber: Ok, so if we don't pay recurring we don't get grandfathered in?

Philip Linden: Here is a statistic you may find useful:

Lordfly Digeridoo: jack: no, gotta buy it before 1.2... i keep pressuring philip to add discounts
Lordfly Digeridoo: that's what this cardboard tube is for :P

Philip Linden: Right now you all own a total of 1.3 Million meters of land.
Philip Linden: With the new allocations, you all get 1.6Million meters.
Philip Linden: So overall we are giving you 300,000 meters - about 5 sims worth of land.
Philip Linden: So it is very fair for those here already as to the allocations.
Philip Linden: The lifetime memberships will be available until 12.22

Foresaken1 Romulus: do we just pick our acre or is it assigned

Peter Cartier: If you have over 1024sqm now, can you just reduce to 1024 and stay there?

Jack Cook: so th3n we will have to pay maembership fees forever then?<

MaryJane Sunshine: If you buy a lifetime & have more land than given will you be billed accordingly?

Philip Linden: Jack if you are a lifer you do not pay fees unless you own more land,
Philip Linden: and then, as I said, you can pay L$ for it.

WyckedRaven Serpentine: what if your on a 3 month now and decided to get lifetime how does that work ,, do you not get charged for it until the 3 months is up?

Aurelie Starseeker: Curious, if you happen to owe more after 1.2, and are to be billed for the extra land, how are you billed?

Philip Linden: MJ... you will be emailed and have a grace period and must confirm before being billed anything.
Philip Linden: Upshaw, we haven't set the L$ land fee prices but will by end of week.
Philip Linden: Jack the quarterly membership is now cheaper.

Liberty Tesla: So lifers get 4096m for $0/month, and the rest of us get 1024m, but only if we pay $10/month?

Philip Linden: Correct liberty, you must have a monthly/qrtly/annual account.

Lordfly Digeridoo: philip: any word on L$ to RL$ to lifetime discounts yet? *hopeful puppy dog look*

Oz Spade: If i recall, people can sign up for lifetime, and then not pay it untill their current plan would be up, correct?

Starwaster Peregrine: it says on te website that all subscribers get SOME land per month.

Philip Linden: Aurelie you get a mail telling you how much you have and what price that puts you at, and ou must confirm it.

Peter Cartier: Phillip I have over 2000sqm cqn I just reduce to 1024 and stay where I'm at?

Edkc56 Gardner: are referals gonna end?

Philip Linden: New monthly users get 512 meters, old ones (those who join before 12.22) get 1024 meters.

Aurelie Starseeker: okie, and then you can pay for it with rl$ or with linden $, but what if i paid for my lifer with a money order, and not a credit card? lol

Philip Linden: Good Q Aurelie, hoestly I don't know.

Aphrodite Stephanopolis: Philip don't you think it would be better to extend the lifetime signup deadline until January seeing how most people are spending their money on Christmas?

Philip Linden: Aphrodite we hadn't thought about demand for lifetimes... flattering that we have had so much!

Shadow Weaver: and can that be on a payment plan seperate from montly rate....

Philip Linden: We were just worried about getting code done so folks could play with new build over holidays.

Lordfly Digeridoo: philip: i think we just want a better guaranteed slice of pie before new users come in...
Lordfly Digeridoo: danke philippants

Peter Cartier: I guess will try it one more time, hello Phillip, I joined before 12.22 and should be entitled to 1024 sm. I have a structure on over 2000sm, can I just reduce the lot that I'm on to 1024sm and stay wher I am at at the present time? Whew!

Lordfly Digeridoo: oh, sorry if i missed this question... how are trial users going to be treated/setup in 1.2?

Pahoa Jade: if my quarterly is up in March and i wanna upgrade to life how will that work ?

Philip Linden: trial users will be about the same... 7 day trial, CC required.
Philip Linden: Yes Peter you can do exactly that.

odalisque VonLenard: Lifetime is not available after 12/22 according to the current plan, but I think with the demand the Lindens will rethink that

MaryJane Sunshine: what would be the benefit of being a lifetime meber after 12.22?

Shadow Weaver: Ok Phillip can you look into some of us that would like a life time but due to Christmas and Expenditures cannot come up with that kind of cash as a lump sum.

Philip Linden: Icon why don't you send me mail with your question.

Shadow Weaver: a method of a payment plan?

Foresaken1 Romulus: can we donate server space for l$

Corwin Weber: Payments maybe? Keep us on the existing 15 bucks a month until it's paid off?

Philip Linden: I'm sure I just don't understand and will try to answer.

Lordfly Digeridoo: phiip: what features/resources will they get?

Philip Linden: Other comments from all welcome too.

Lordfly Digeridoo: will trial users be able to build on land?

Philip Linden: FOresaken... not now but we plan to ultimately.

Catherine Linden: Thanks everyone for coming out!

Philip Linden: OK you guys I've gotta run.

odalisque VonLenard: Peter, your current land remains yours, it will be assessed and you will be told ahead of time how much you need to release or pay if you want to keep, but you don't have to move

Philip Linden: Sorry again for all the confusion... glad we have been able to answer some questions.

Starwaster Peregrine: errrr, so what was the answer then on lifetime members as regards land? Do they get allocated some land or do they ahve to buy it

Philip Linden: Star... you get to keep what you have,, and get no fees on up to 4096 meters.

Philip Linden: OK goodbye all!

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