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Town Hall 7/30/03/4pm

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Forum Link: Original Post

Town Hall Chat Log: 7/30, 4pm


Hunter Linden: welcome all to a Second Life townhall
Hunter Linden: Here are the mechanics of it all
Hunter Linden: once we go to open Q&A, if you have a question, say "Question" and I'll call on people in order
Hunter Linden: also, please 'shout' all questions so everyone can hear you
Hunter Linden: drum roll
Hunter Linden: And please welcome.... Philip Linden

Philip Linden: Hi All
Philip Linden: OK, so welcome all! Thanks as always for all the new happenings....
Philip Linden: Very, very cool stuff lately.
Philip Linden: I loved the Ama IPO, of course the aliens, all the Americana work...
Philip Linden: The new stores!
Philip Linden: So thanks!
Philip Linden: OK so there is a lot to talk about.
Philip Linden: I'll throw out a few subjects that I think are top of mind
Philip Linden: And then we can get started with Q's and discussion
Philip Linden: Clearly the new trial program is a big change....
Philip Linden: Most folks seem to want more exploration of the world by noobs
Philip Linden: Actually that's really cool...
Philip Linden: Lots of our design was to protect you guys, so cool feedback.
Philip Linden: We'll look at the week's results (conversion-wise) and go from there.
Philip Linden: Also of course there is the continuing saga of taxes.
Philip Linden: Seems like many think that the bonuses are unpredictable,
Philip Linden: (they are!)
Philip Linden: the taxes too high
Philip Linden: and that building in groups is hard.
Philip Linden: Plus there has been a discussion of socialization vs. building... we can talk about that.
Philip Linden: Also I posted a couple threads on helping newbies get acclimated,
Philip Linden: and on ways to stabilize the bonus prediction for stipends...
Philip Linden: We can talk about that.
Philip Linden: Of all these discussions...
Philip Linden: I think what is important to keep in mind,
Philip Linden: is that we view ourselves as facilitators, not gods.
Philip Linden: (although we enjoy the occasional worship)
Philip Linden: So we are going to work to do what seems best for all above any 'design'
Philip Linden: or 'vision' that we may have.
Philip Linden: We think that listening carefully and interpreting brilliantly will be our strength
Philip Linden: In the days to come as these worlds emerge.
Philip Linden: So anyway, enough from me.
Philip Linden: Lets chat... who's first... Hunter will sequence.

Dave Zeeman: My question is about the "historical landmark" idea
Dave Zeeman: I'm wondering if that applies to a specific build, building, chunk of land, full community.
Dave Zeeman: And if that 1000 dollar grant is for the group as a whole, or for each participating member of the group.
Philip Linden: OK on that subject....
Philip Linden: We need to figure out fair mechanisms for 'civic' works in general.
Philip Linden: Individual taxes shouldn't cover these.
Philip Linden: So the historical LM idea is just a start.
Philip Linden: We need more programs in place that preserve generally important builds.
Philip Linden: The design challenge is to be totally fair,
Philip Linden: keep them constantly maintained and improved
Philip Linden: And have a good policy for when to 'retire' them back to private use.
Hunter Linden: Dave - for specifics work with Haney - the intention is that it is for the group, and can be land/build/objects etc - no single rule on what a historical landmark is....
Dave Zeeman: okay thank you
Philip Linden: Hang on I'm asking Haney
Dave Zeeman: I know it's a start, I've been racking my brain about precisely what you explained.
Philip Linden: Haney says the grant is intended for the whole group.
Dave Zeeman: And it _is_ a start, which is good enough.
Philip Linden: So please start threads with other ideas for processes for this.
Dave Zeeman: okay
Philip Linden: I think they are very important. I know Tcoz made a similar mention earlier.
Philip Linden: Clearly there are cases where we need these policies.
Philip Linden: But remember the goals of fairness and timing in the ideas.

Petey Metalhead: I have a kind of silly question...
Petey Metalhead: Will there be hugging in 1.1?
Philip Linden: Ooh hugging!
Philip Linden: I like hugging.
Philip Linden: We don't have 2-person anims in the plan.
Philip Linden: for 1.1
Petey Metalhead: oh okies
Philip Linden: But we really want to do this soon.
Philip Linden: We are thinking about some simpler solutions.
Philip Linden: How would you all balance uploadable versus 2-person,
Philip Linden: in terms of priority?
Philip Linden: Uploadable being those you can upload as new ones you made.
Philip Linden: (Vote U or 2)
lots of U votes
Philip Linden: OK looks like the U's have it. Good feedback.
Philip Linden: Where are those TSO fans when you need em
Petey Metalhead: 2 person will be later

Ezhar Fairlight: re: trial experience. are you feeling that was a good change? out of 5 noobs i've met, 3 were secondary accounts of people that already play, 1 was just there to annoy people and one was really interested in SL
Ezhar Fairlight: the restriction to four sims really takes away the strongest side of SL - the player content
Nyna Slate: you join when you make friends
Philip Linden: Do you think making friends or visiting places is bigger deal,
Philip Linden: if you had to rank?
Philip Linden: F or P?
lots of 'P,' and 'both' ' a few 'F'
Philip Linden: Is anyone here worried about trial users being a nuisance at their homes?
lots of 'no'
Porter Murphy: as a noob myself, i loved seeing all the cool sims, but it's the ppl that make it better
Dave Zeeman: I worry about them NOT seeing my home and being impressed!
Philip Linden: OK good feedback - we wouldn't have guessed that.
Philip Linden: So we will look at the next few days and decide whether to broaden the reach.
Philip Linden: We don't have any specific agenda on that design -
Philip Linden: Just made a judgment call.
Philip Linden: The CC is a big prob...
Philip Linden: We are now letting like 5x the people in!
Philip Linden: So the CC is BAD
Philip Linden: We need a better way to establish identify / protect against abuse.
Philip Linden: So we are going in the right direction.
Philip Linden: Agree we need to wait and see conversion.
Philip Linden: That is why we will wait a week or so b4 making changes.
Philip Linden: There is plenty of room for everyone....
Philip Linden: As the beta users can confirm, we can add servers REALLY FASY
Philip Linden: FAST
Philip Linden: to accommodate new ppl.

Fleabite Beach: I have, since beta in july, been fully open source, full modify copy
Fleabite Beach: for all my stuff
Philip Linden: very cool!
Fleabite Beach: may park system runs on donations and is totally self sufficient
Philip Linden: nice
Fleabite Beach: ...UNTIL THIS SUNDAY
Fleabite Beach: when I lose most of it
Fleabite Beach: is there any way to get some kind of fast track tax relief?
Fleabite Beach: a LOANER?
Philip Linden: fleabite I'm not sure how that will happen.
Philip Linden: I have a list of those affected... you aren't on it.
Fleabite Beach: ??
Philip Linden: Why don't you see me after class...
Fleabite Beach: okay)
Fleabite Beach: thx P)
Philip Linden: The -1000 cap thing affects very few ppl.
Philip Linden: There are cases where we need to be aggressive about public works...
Philip Linden: we will be.
Fleabite Beach: one more observation
Fleabite Beach: the talk on the forums have been really good RE: taxes
Philip Linden: thanks flea!

Daysleeper Midnight: When do you think we can expect to have some self-governance in SL? And what do you have in mind for a start?
Philip Linden: Daysleeper...
Philip Linden: The first big set of self-governance features will be in 1.1...
Philip Linden: Specifically in what you can do as a group,
Philip Linden: and what controls you have over land parcels.
Philip Linden: September is the targeted release date
Daysleeper Midnight: I also heard we'll be able to own and earn jointly, is that true?
Philip Linden: For parcels, you will have full ban/admit list, and hopefully automatic cover charges, etc.
Philip Linden: For groups, you will have voting with recall/election...
Philip Linden: Ability to pool taxes equally among all members,
Philip Linden: declare dividends, etc.
Philip Linden: Should be very powerful in allowing big group builds that are self-sustaining.
Philip Linden: Which in our guess is 1st priority
Philip Linden: So we will publish design doc for this within 5 days.
Philip Linden: For your review.

Devlin Gallant: Now that they are lifting the tax cap, how bout lifting the bonus cap too. I think it#s unfair when my bonus says it will be 4700, and they will take 1200 away from me
Philip Linden: Good Q....
Philip Linden: We've been debating.
Philip Linden: So the bonus is to be a social system... rewarding stuff for all...
Philip Linden: So it seems to me that money accumulating in your pocket (versus for taxes)
Philip Linden: is less socially valuable...
Philip Linden: that was the reason for the caps.
Philip Linden: What does everyone think... bearing in mind that it will affect everyone...
Devlin Gallant: By capping it the way they have, isn't that just another form of taxation
Philip Linden: money accumulation will ultimately inflate econ for all.
Philip Linden: Do you want the cap gone for accumulation?
mix of 'gone' and 'keep it, but raise it'
Philip Linden: The current system is too confusing...
Philip Linden: which causes many of the probs...
Philip Linden: and that is our fault.
Philip Linden: Which is why I want to simplify that system as possible.
Dave Zeeman: so i can understand the elaborateness
Philip Linden: We'll think about it... good feedback on the caps.
Philip Linden: Creativity should be the work here, I agree.
Philip Linden: Not pizza or metals.

Candie Apple: Is there a ceiling we should put on the amount of land we own?
Philip Linden: Hmmm interesting point.
Philip Linden: How do you mean Candie?
Candie Apple: if you work hard and you don't exploit the system through object banking for example and you contribute to the community is there any reason you should limit the amount of land you buy?
Philip Linden: I don't see why...
Philip Linden: part of the appeal of SL is you COULD own all of it.
Philip Linden: I guess then you'd do my reviews
Candie Apple: is it exploitative? or does it take advantage of others or deny others?
Philip Linden: So I think best in spirit is no limits, Candie.
Candie Apple: this has nothing to do with ruling anything - at least my question doesn't to me
Philip Linden: But you are right it must not deny advantage to others...
Philip Linden: So that is the basic balancing act of taxation, for one thing.
Philip Linden: Yes I agree C.
Philip Linden: Yes checkerboarding is an example of a generally negative thing that it makes sense to have policy against.
Candie Apple: ty philip

Web Weaver: i thought your business model calls for 50 land owners per sim
Philip Linden: Ah... let me clarify on the 50/sim thing...
Philip Linden: This is misunderstood.
Philip Linden: I was referring there only to the aggregate forecast for machines/resident.
Philip Linden: on the server side.
Philip Linden: This is by no means likely to be the 'typical' state of affairs.
Philip Linden: The economy means great variance, as their should be.
Philip Linden: I expect that stable state will have many casual users with very little land,
Philip Linden: for example.
Philip Linden: And builders with lots more, like we have now.

Jai Nomad: A fellow Linden told me tonight that you do not officially support non US subscribers. Is that true??? I feel all unwanted. *pout*
Philip Linden: We are working on international as quickly as we can!
Philip Linden: There are numerous regs and the like we must support for 'official' coverage.
Philip Linden: Like any other internet service, we can't really police who joins.
Philip Linden: So I guess there may be some 'gray-market' folks for a while

Misnomer Jones: we've talked about balance and taxes on the lower end of the economic model. What it the upper end. Aren't there people who have money they cant spend or they will then go neg in taxes?
Philip Linden: MJ, what do you mean?
Misnomer Jones: those ppl will continue to accumulate.. that#s not good either
Philip Linden: Do you mean keeping large cash balances?
Philip Linden: Agree that accumulation is generally bad for economies...
Misnomer Jones: I know of some people who have money but cant or won#t spend because if they do they will hit the tax ceiling
Philip Linden: tax ceiling? You mean the $3500 limit?
Misnomer Jones: no if this is taking too much time I can explain afterwards
Philip Linden: OK see me... sorry I am confused.
Misnomer Jones: np
Daysleeper Midnight: MJ, I'd like to know what you mean
Ezhar Fairlight: i think what MJ means is that the people would then have more tax than stipend and their cash pile would sink instead of rise
Misnomer Jones: sink rise or stay even

Empathic Cellardoor: Is any type of Policy going to be put in place to police the billboards that seem to go up everywhere?
Philip Linden: OK so billboards...
Empathic Cellardoor: sorry if this has already been addressed
Philip Linden: now this is something that seems inappropriate for global policy...
Philip Linden: but should be locally controllable.
Philip Linden: Like in a smaller community you can't put em up, etc.
Philip Linden: So our thinking is to try and add appropriate group/governance as needed.
Empathic Cellardoor: so it could be a option in say a community control?
Empathic Cellardoor: Alright, I see
Philip Linden: Yes I envision it as part of a 'charter' like what we have for groups today.
Empathic Cellardoor: tks Phil
Philip Linden: Hmmm.... sounds like a way for the owner(s) to earn points with all!

Ezhar Fairlight: ETA on 1.1 and Havok2?
Philip Linden: Target time for 1.1 is September.
Philip Linden: Havok 2.0 is not on that sched, as they haven't yet implemented...
Philip Linden: concave collision
Philip Linden: Which is a big prob for us.

Gwydeon Nomad: With all this talk about 'self governance' do we have a date when a group can be disbanded by group vote? The original Little Tokyo Group has about 50% of its members who did not continue to final
Gwydeon Nomad: We would like to take it down and reform under the same name. There are other reasons (some players who have not and do not any longer intend on continuing with LT)
Philip Linden: In 1.1, members can be ejected by officers.
Philip Linden: Disbanding is a good point... OK we will look at that.
Philip Linden: Probably need something.

Grim Lupis: what about the socializing vs. building vs. scripting issue??
Grim Lupis: Currently, it seems as though "success" in its various forms is heavily waited towards socializing
Philip Linden: Yes that....
Philip Linden: TO be clear...
Philip Linden: We view the CRITICAL STRENGTH of SL as creative collaboration and self-expression
Philip Linden: We do not view '3D chat' as the 'killer app' that makes this sort of product work.
Philip Linden: It is true, however, that we push hard for work that is socially compelling...
Philip Linden: hence the reputation systems....
Philip Linden: But I think that by tuning the bonuses to more closely track reputation in all forms,
Philip Linden: and by putting easy object/site rating into 1.1
Philip Linden: we will help with that.
Philip Linden: I think the calling card contribution to reputation, for example, is probably a bad idea.
Philip Linden: So we're looking at that.
Gwydeon Nomad: Is the "bonus based on visitors' system still in the works?
Philip Linden: You mean dwell?
Gwydeon Nomad: CC = Bonus = Silly :P
Philip Linden: Grin... measuring people who come to see your build seems logical,
Philip Linden: if we can solve probs of buffer areas, etc, as mentioned.
Philip Linden: right?
Grim Lupis: you can't tell what they're looking at, or why they're there
Grim Lupis: you can only tell where they are
Grim Lupis: which is often completely different
Philip Linden: As a builder, it seems logical that simply having people wander by seems cool..
Philip Linden: Yes but we can look at view/interaction/etc.
Philip Linden: As ways to refine that data.
Philip Linden: I think there is generally a measurable correlate between dwell and 'real' attention.

Philip Linden: Permissions.
Philip Linden: So we have already added (internally) I think many of the permissions caps.
Philip Linden: You will be able to specify 'transfer' rights for all stuff... clothing and textures and scripts included.
Philip Linden: In 1.1
Philip Linden: Quite difficult to do, really.
Philip Linden: But it has been our 1st thing to work on.
Grim Lupis: but I have confidence in you guys ;-)
Philip Linden: Thanks Grim!

Philip Linden: OK we've gotta wrap...
Philip Linden: I've gotta go home for next one...
Philip Linden: at 8pm.
Hunter Linden: Thanks everyone - chat log will be posted on forums...

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