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Town Hall 8/12/04/C

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Forum Link: Original Post

08/12/04 - Town Hall with Cory Linden (Exposition Linden)
Basic Subject: Land and Land Prices

Land Issues Group Chat With Cory "Exposition" Linden - 8/12/2004

Exposition Linden: ok, we're ready to get going

Exposition Linden: Hope everyone is having a good day

Exposition Linden: we're doing to spend the next hour or so talking about SL land issues

Exposition Linden: Please respect the fact that we have 12 folks here trying to discuss an importantn topic . . .

Exposition Linden: so be polite in your chatting

Haney Linden: Check the events calendar for Land discussions with Lindens.

Exposition Linden: First off, a couple of overall comments

Exposition Linden: 1) We will put about twice as much land online in August as we did in July

Adam Zaius: (Pardon the interruption, mind if I setup a chat recorder?)

Exposition Linden: Please do, Adam

Adam Zaius: (no built)

Strife Onizuka: attach?

Adam Zaius: (built*)

Adam Zaius: Ah yeah

Reitsuki Kojima: Put in on your head adam :P

Adam Zaius: nm

Rickard Roentgen: wear it

Rickard Roentgen: lol

Ice Brodie: Adam, this is why I build my scanners as attachments :P

Exposition Linden: 2) The SL economy is growing in a very healthy way and we've seen great overall GDP growth separate from the land prices

Exposition Linden: 3) 1.5 will be out "soon" so look for preview in the next couple of weeks

Ice Brodie: will we get Havok 2?

Rickard Roentgen: lol land discussion ice

Exposition Linden: 4) We're going to change one of the rules for private islands so you'll be able to sell your islands to other residents

Lit Noir: Who-hoo!

Rickard Roentgen: nice

Rickard Roentgen: oooh

Ice Brodie: pfft, I've been waiting for Havok 2 since I got to SL

Rickard Roentgen: parcels of it or only the whole thing?

Exposition Linden: That's it for me .. . the topic for today is land in SL, land for users, how it goes into the world, how users sell it to each other, &c

Christopher Omega: Will any more sandbox simulators be added into the grid?

Exposition Linden: So, feel free to raise points . . . if you are in the middle of a thought, please end your line with elipses so that people . . .

Ice Brodie: the cost increase happened right after the last Reuters article, land barrons popped up like mad.

Exposition Linden: know that you are still typing

Exposition Linden: whole thing, not parcels, Rickard

Exposition Linden: Ice, we're going to try to deply twice as much land to drop the prices

Salazar Jack: Can you tell us about any land management features that will be in 1.5?

Lit Noir: Will gorups be able to apply land tiers to rpivate isalnds, or will that still be a nog go?

Rickard Roentgen: oh ya, since we can sell them can groups buy them?

Salazar Jack: New land mangement features...

Exposition Linden: Salazar, 1.5 will fix the various buggy features from 1.4 and give the owners way more flexibility about managing guests . . .

Exposition Linden: visibility, &c

Jay Fairplay: When you say private Island, you mean whole sim, right?

Lumiere Noir: speaking of groups, will the largest share of dwell go to the largest contributor of land to the group (including the developer's incentive bonus) as Hanley brought up in forums?

Exposition Linden: Lit, that will still be a no, go

Adam Zaius: So, the Estate options, which were visible in preview 1.4, are coming in 1.5?

Lumiere Noir: Haney*

Exposition Linden: Rickard, no still individuals from our perspective, but you can work together to buy sims (a la the Uru Live folks)

Exposition Linden: ok, let me catch up a bit :-)

Salazar Jack: Any specifics on guest management?

Exposition Linden: Jay, I mean private islands bought from LL as a private island, not from auciton

Exposition Linden: Adam, yes

Exposition Linden: Lumiere, for purposes of developer rewards dwell will be split by land allocation

Ice Brodie: will bans effect higher altitudes, Luskwood's decks are right around the current ban height.

Exposition Linden: Salazar, kicking people, ban lists, &c

Lumiere Noir: thanks Exposition :-)

Exposition Linden: Ice, bans on private islands are the whole sim

Ice Brodie: I'm trying to find out about on general grid.

Jay Fairplay: Exposition: but that is a whole sim, right?

Exposition Linden: Ice, we hadn't planned on elevating the ban height since it makes crossing the world hard, however that's an interesting point

Reitsuki Kojima: Ice; I think the reason they dont ban higher is to try to keep a general "clear fly" zone, but I have to agree... Some places just dont work right as it is.

Ice Brodie: give a 15 second warning like when someone's added to the ban list?

Exposition Linden: Jay, yes

Salazar Jack: Any expanded ability for people, designatged by the land owner, to be able to kick/ban peopple from parcels (beyond group officers)?

Ice Brodie: land officers would be nice.

Exposition Linden: Salazar, no, only group officers for now, but that is an active topic of discussion for 1.6

Salazar Jack: Thank you.

Reitsuki Kojima: Exposition, are expanded object management tools (Sort by owner, etc) on the list of new land tools?

Ice Brodie: specifically assigned powers to people is something I've seen in administration of a MUCK I run, you can give someone some powers without fearing that they may put the land up for sale.

Adam Zaius: Salzar: That raises an interesting issue with LSL. Since LSL makes those options availible to the general audience, prehaps adding the ability to edit PIE MENU options from LSL would solve this problem, and more.

Exposition Linden: Reitsuki, no, but I'd like to hear what you would want so that we can get them into the queue for 1.6

Rickard Roentgen: will the land management functions work for group officers in 1.5 without having to be put in an object deeded to the group?

Exposition Linden: Ice, good point

Reitsuki Kojima: Well, the big one is, some way to sort-by and as a result return-by user name, but as a lump... For when a griefer litters a mall or some such, that has a ton of people's objects on it for legitimate reasons.

Exposition Linden: Rickard, could you clarify the quesitons slightly . . . do you mean with associated objects?

Ice Brodie: yes, individual user return of all objects would be nice.

Reitsuki Kojima: Also as a way to find objects that griefers do their best to hide, like inside other prims, up in the sky, etc.

Exposition Linden: Reitsuki, ah . . . good point . . . let me write that one down :-)

Adam Zaius: Another idea; that would be usefull for Town hall, and other 'formal Q&A' style enviroments would be the ability to set an IRC-style Moderation Mode over a parcel of land, which restricts chat to a few certain privlidged people.

Salazar Jack: Or when you are leasing land and want to check that a renter hasn't gone over their prim limit.

Rickard Roentgen: for instance, group owned land, unsit called from something attached to me won't work

Rickard Roentgen: I have to put it in a cube and then deed the cube to the group

Salazar Jack: If there are mutlipl erenters on one parcel.

Salazar Jack: multiple renters, lol

Reitsuki Kojima: Ahh, good point Rick... The parcelmusic change lsl command is another one you have to do that for, sadly

Exposition Linden: Rickard, ok, I get it . . .noted

Exposition Linden: Adam, great idea

Christopher Omega: Any additional sandbox simulators planned soon? Will there be any changes to the way sandboxes are run in the coming days?

Exposition Linden: Do you guys want more sandboxes? How would you change how they run?

Christopher Omega: (sorry, not sure if it was heard before ^_^)

Salazar Jack: I agree about adding morre sandboxes if possible.

Adam Zaius: Yeah, another sandbox or two, would be good.

Ice Brodie: a physics experiement crippled Cordova, which is crowded to begin with.

Strife Onizuka: (yes another sandbox would be good)

Adam Zaius: Maybe seperate it as a completely different island, consisting of four sims, so that any escaped self replicating accidents, dont take down the entire grid.

Salazar Jack: These are great areas for new people to try things out in.

Christopher Omega agrees with Adam

Ice Brodie: how about group members' objects having the same permissions as the group itself.

Rickard Roentgen: what adam said, sandbox islands

Reitsuki Kojima: Exposition, one thing I would like to see is a pure-building sandbox. No scripts allowed, if possible even no physics allowed. Its annoying to try to be building something and have the sandbox ruined by people who turn it into their personal playground

Ice Brodie: llSetMusicURL only allows the group to set the music URL, an officer's object can't, for example.

Ice Brodie: there are more serious ones, that one's been my most recent problem, however.

Exposition Linden: Ice, the balance we're trying to find is how much should you automatically trust your group members . . .

Exposition Linden: But I agree that the script run stuff is a problem

Rickard Roentgen: ya ice, that's in there with the parcel fuctions not working for group leaders on group land

Nidonocu Gullwing: Yeah, it can be annoying to be building having a sudden gunshot go off in the background or music to start up.

Strife Onizuka: (i would like to see a no object physics sandbox

Adam Zaius: As an officer, in a group, they can 'sell' the land, being able to change the options is trivial compared to that. :)

Ice Brodie: I would like to see functions able to be assigned.

Ice Brodie: just something that came to mind.

Exposition Linden: "no object physics sandbox"? not sure what you mean

Rickard Roentgen: lol well, you start a group, deed the land, you probably should trust the people you make group leaders, or not make them group leaders

Adam Zaius: Exposition: no people making torii chains. ;)

Ice Brodie: Unable to enable physics in this parcel.

Reitsuki Kojima: Exposition, a sandbox where physics enabled objects just wont work

Adam Zaius: I think Rei means however, completely disable the ability to set an object physical in that box

Christopher Omega: That would be quite interesting, a group of four sandboxes, each with a different "style", not connected to the grid...

Reitsuki Kojima: No vehicles, no falling cubes, etc.

Exposition Linden: so, only for script experimentation?

Ice Brodie: possibly.

Jay Fairplay: no physics, not no object. ;)

Reitsuki Kojima: No scripts either. I'd like to see a pure building, no scripts, no physics, sandbox.

Ice Brodie: that and to stop people setting up 1000 dominos like in Cordova this morning.

Exposition Linden: or building in general . . . no physical objects

Christopher Omega: style, meaning one would only allow building without scripts or physics... another would be free-for-all...

Strife Onizuka: yes

Exposition Linden: ok, good idea

Ice Brodie: perhaps a list of who's objects are on the land, as part of the return all objects of individual?

Exposition Linden: Ice, yes got that one already . .. it's a good idea

Ice Brodie: cool ^.^

Exposition Linden: Any comments on real estate agents aka land barons? Think they add value? Thinkt hat they could add value?

Adam Zaius: Exposition: Only if land becomes more liquid.

Adam Zaius: SL at the current stage, lacks enough tools to manage lots of land, to enable a real 'real estate' agent.

Exposition Linden: How would you want land ot be more liquid, Adam?

Salazar Jack: I like the idea of land devewlopers, people who create something on the land as part of selling the land.

Lit Noir: I have no issues with land barons per se, as long as the supply is enought that no one or no cartel can control prices

Ice Brodie: I think they should have to sit on the land for a certain ammount of time or return it to the seller for a refund, makes them think before they buy the land, look at it, then sell it for twice as much.

Exposition Linden: What kind of tools would you want?

Nidonocu Gullwing: Oh yes, I like the idea of land development

Reitsuki Kojima: Exposition, I'll be blunt. In my opinion, they do worse than add value; they detract it.

Adam Zaius: I've been looking into this personally; I've got a system I'm building to allow user land auctions, and the only solution to the management, is to hire an external entity to do the management side.

Adam Zaius: Rei: Only when it's a simple markup.

Adam Zaius: There is a certain value in having the land market very liquid. Especially on the selling end.

Ice Brodie: I don't want to buy land because it's usually over 8 lindens a square meter or auction.

Exposition Linden: Ah, so you'd like tools to allow users to buy land at auction and then compete with the auctions

Reitsuki Kojima: Adam, I'm tlaking on a broader level. Spinning signs, cutting up plots, holding plots hostage, you name it.

Reitsuki Kojima: I dont just mean for the land itself, I mean from the experience of the game in general.

Jay Fairplay: Ya, like you pay extra tax here if you don't live in the place you buy for at least a year before you sell it.

Adam Zaius: Rei: Again, there's no service added, I'd call that more baroning, than real estate.

Salazar Jack: I'd like to make it aq bit easier to sell a parcel 's contents when the parcel is sold. So you could sell a house or builing and it's contents when you sell the land (all at once).

Gabriel Spinnaker: I figure land barons are just a result of having a free market, so I don't really understand the objection, unless you'd prefer that the market be less free.

Lit Noir: Land brokers can do a service by adding liquidity, buying then holding so the final buyer and seller don't need to be looking at the same time, consider it inventory

Exposition Linden: you can sell the parcels contents

Adam Zaius: The problem is any 'baron solution' ultimately, harms the players, if it's removing rights.

Gabriel Spinnaker: Although not being a landowner I suppose I don't have the perspective of those who DO own land.

Reitsuki Kojima: Adam: I've never seen any example of service added, so the point is moot.

Lit Noir: But if one or a cartel holds enough inventory, then pricing can get out of whack

Ice Brodie: the game's generally become, flatten it, put up a casino/mall/mature hangout... or sell it for twice the buying price, good builds are loosing support and the place's turning into a badly run Vegas without a gambling commission.

Salazar Jack: Don't the parrcel's have to be sold separatley?

Adam Zaius: Ideally: The land addition process should be sped up significantly. So much so, that creating huge markups is impossible, due to the glut of land.

Salazar Jack: From the objects on them?

Adam Zaius: It can be normalised again, after there's a glut in the system.

Ice Brodie: dropping support for group builds was something I saw several friends effected by.

Adam Zaius: But there are going to be problems while the user growth rate, is not proportional to the land growth rate.

Exposition Linden: Remember, we are going to greatly accelerate land addition

Adam Zaius: I suspect over time, that will help.

Reitsuki Kojima: I agree with adam on one point: most of the proposed solutions hurt the players as much as the barons. But I think there are valid solutions out there, its just a matter of finding them.

Salazar Jack: The parcels can be set to sell to a specific individual, but not the objects on the parcels. It's a bit cumbersome.

Adam Zaius: But, right now, as an immediete solution, there does need to be a glut, otherwise it will take 3+ months to normalise.

Ice Brodie: I would like to see more zoning areas, like Lusk Estates, and simular, have people build nice places.

Strife Onizuka: i agree people are trying to make money more then create content

Reitsuki Kojima: I

Exposition Linden: Salazar, actually my bad on that . .. that's supposed to be a feature but isn't in the UI . . . color me confused and I'll check on what happened to that

Ice Brodie: Lusk estates itself needs more policing, I've seen over the course of a 3 day period, 3 casinos.

Nidonocu Gullwing: So land is sold on the grounds it is only used for a perticular purpose?

Salazar Jack: Thank you!

Ice Brodie: in some areas, yes.

Reitsuki Kojima: I

Jay Fairplay: Strife: ya!

Reitsuki Kojima: Arg. Keyboard troubles, sorry.

Exposition Linden: Ice, so land zoned by Linden Lab that you guys need to agree to follow or land zoned by residents?

Ice Brodie: possibly both.

Adam Zaius: Zoning by residents is an interesting concept; but the only problem is that it doesnt work both ways.

Strife Onizuka: land zoning is a good idea (but a pain to police)

Ice Brodie: I just would like to see more areas where it's not flattened/club/dwell magnet/sold for 3X the land's worth.

Exposition Linden: Adam, what do you mean by not both ways?

Adam Zaius: It's good for the person starting the community, but it can be harmfull to the buyer, in that it degrades their experience.

Jay Fairplay: Ice: agreed

Exposition Linden: ah . . . couldn't it improve the experience by creating areas with larger themes?

Ice Brodie: I agree, policing'd be the worst part.

Adam Zaius: If there isnt mutual appreciation of the community, and with the current land shortage, it will only create hassle.

Reitsuki Kojima: Exposition, as a compromise, what about a loosely zoned sim type... "Residentiall sim". Not as strictly regulated as, say, boardman, but no stores, casinos, etc. Not all of them, but some...

Adam Zaius: When there is more land around; then I'll reconsider that. :)

Nidonocu Gullwing: Yes, you could also have park zones, for people to just build places for others to chat and talk in.

Exposition Linden: What do the rest of you think about zoning, either specific or more general, sim wide?

Ice Brodie: I don't appreciate stripped down/club/mall/tripple price.

Adam Zaius: Speaking of simple/park sims, Azelda pointed out the idea of 'Permasims' a while ago, which I'm a strong proponent for.

Nidonocu Gullwing: Permasims?

Rickard Roentgen: permasims?

Adam Zaius: Sims which are optimised to have no background script tasks (like Ahern), that are setup with telehubs as general congregation areas.

Christopher Omega: please define that?

Lumiere Noir: I have a feeling that new sims would be the only ones it would really be possible to zone. As a tangent to that, I do like the differentiation in zones that Lindens seem to be trying with this snow sim for instance.

Adam Zaius: It hasnt worked with the two empty sims on the northern continent, becuase there hasnt been any reason for attraction.

Adam Zaius: If you built a decent looking lounge for players to generally chat in, and can guaruntee a decent sim performance, then theres a very real chance they will be used significantly.

Adam Zaius: (Again, without considering the mentality of every user, guarunteeing it, is impossible.)

Reitsuki Kojima: This is partially a side topic, but somewhat related: I'd like to see some more work on the lindens part, be it in TOS refinement or in tools, to help fix "spillover" plots ruining other plots...

Ice Brodie: I would like to see more support for quality group builds.

Nidonocu Gullwing: Yes, I like the idea of sims themed in terms of looks. You could have tropical, desert, etc. Encorage players to build places which match the look of the land.

Exposition Linden: What kind of zones would you want? Residential, commercial, entertainment . . . ?

Reitsuki Kojima: IE, huge prims over on my land, that I cant do anything about because of the centerpoint being on some other plot, massive pillers of light and particles, etc. I realize accidents happen, but too much of it is either deliberate or just thoughtless.

Ice Brodie: perhaps... that actually would be a good zoning arangement for SL, as we don't have much industrial work to worry about, rez what you need.

Exposition Linden: Rei, "spillover"? Audio, physics, sim performance?

Ice Brodie: object.

Lumiere Noir: Exposition I think the answer is yes yes and yes :-) You'd need many such sims to satisfy diverse needs if a kind of zoning were put in place.

Salazar Jack: If a new sim was released that was zoned no casino/no club, then the people who would like to live in such a sim would have more confidence in locating there with less potential conflict for sim resources.

Adam Zaius: Being able to set a primitive's faces as "self lit" would have a massive boost in client-side performance, as everyone wouldnt be setting 'light' to achieve the same effect.

Ice Brodie: there's a boarder crossing of some of Andie Apollo's club into Luskwood land, we can't do anything with that because it's her object and rooted in her parcel.

Ice Brodie: Adam's point would make client side lighting practical.

Adam Zaius: Ice: Agreed, there's a major problem there.

Adam Zaius: In terms of object-over-parcel-boundary, prehaps the Activeworlds solution is the right one?

Rickard Roentgen: oh, I'd like a function for parcel wide triggersound. like streaming music but a normal 9 second clip

Exposition Linden: So what would you guys want? If a prim is on your land you can return it (not center, but any part)?

Adam Zaius: Exposition: right.

Adam Zaius: That's the AW solution.

Reitsuki Kojima: That would be a bit help, yes.

Adam Zaius: Make it more than 0.001nm across the border.

Ice Brodie: what's bad is that the part that's in Luskwood's center's still in Andie's land.

Adam Zaius: Say when it's got more than 30% of it's volume on your land.

Reitsuki Kojima: I'd also like it if some consideration could be made for massive light polution in the TOS, right now its apparently a-ok, but it can ruin a sim or better with very little effort.

Lit Noir: Agreed Adam

Salazar Jack: That would alleviate a lot of situations if it were possible to removed any object with any part that crossed one's parcel border

Jay Fairplay: sounds good

Exposition Linden: Light polution . . . that will become more of a problem as we improve the rendering engine, actually . . . great point

Ice Brodie: self-lit face, add that so something doesn't change color in different light, and make it known that they should use this instead of light.

Strife Onizuka: light faces on prims would work so you could make directional lights

Ice Brodie: I'd be so happy to make my holograms use that when I make holograms.

Adam Zaius: Yes, a proper light implementation would be good.

Lumiere Noir: Do Lindens ever release or sell land in old sims (like Natoma) that are held to preserve aspects of the landscape that no longer exist? Do Lindens need to own a certain quota of each sim?

Exposition Linden: Allow me to stop the interesting side discussion into lighting, OK? :-) Thanks

Jay Fairplay: And no offense to anyone, I don't think we want a rule taylored to Luskwood.. any part of the object should be sufficient..

Ice Brodie: sorry.

Adam Zaius: Make it so lights are not a property of the prim itself, but a script controlled element, such as llCreateLight(integer type, integer strength, vector color) ... etc.

Exposition Linden: Lumiere, no . . . we release land if we don't think that we need to own it anymore

Lumiere Noir: thanks Exposition

Ice Brodie: Luskwood's an example, I don't speak just for them.

Rickard Roentgen: I support what adam said, light casting being s scripted funtion

Exposition Linden: Oh, by the way,forgot that I was in as Exposition . . . everyone knows that this is Cory Linden, right? Just so you know who you're speaking with.

Rickard Roentgen: function*

Lumiere Noir: I was wondering, thanks Cory :-)

Ice Brodie: was wondering who the Linden behind the mask was.

Adam Zaius: Ah, cory, I'll poke you later, I want to make another scripting language. ;)

Jay Fairplay: Hi Cory :)

Ice Brodie baps Adam a bit, "learn how to code better in this one first."

Strife Onizuka: the part of a prim feature will cause major havok for all Linden buildings

Nidonocu Gullwing: Can I ask what the current policy is on placement of Telehubs? ...

Lumiere Noir: and under this mask, I'm Lumiere....who is the same as this mask I guess...

Exposition Linden: Nidonocu, we try to place hubs to create a variety in access to land

Strife Onizuka: the right of ways for the roads are sometimes not wide enough for the road on them and moreover the roads are not always built on the right of ways

Adam Zaius: I think they are too sparse if you want my opinion...

Exposition Linden: Strife, good point although we have ways of limiting deletion of Linden creations

Exposition Linden: What do the rest of you think about the placement of hubs?

Adam Zaius: Most people dont see the telehubs as a forced exploration point, but a limitation of getting from point A to point B.

Nidonocu Gullwing: That's what I was thinking Adam, you sometimes have to fly a long way, just cause a telehub is too near.

Ice Brodie: I see roads spill into plots, and bars across the roads.

Reitsuki Kojima: I think they are too sparse too, particularly in the newer sims.

Ice Brodie: when I explore, I explore of my own free will, the telehubs are just more chances to run into a club or hit a barred sim or worse, one with a guard dog.

Rickard Roentgen: lol, I have fast wings, telehubs are spaced fine

Lit Noir: They are a bit sparse in the new southern sims, the north isn't too bad in my view, with one oft mentioned exception

Ice Brodie: once I was shot traveleing from a telehub to a location.

Reitsuki Kojima: Most people dont, Rickard

Lumiere Noir: I agree with Rei...when I had land in the northwest it was a pain, the hubs are quite sparce there.

Adam Zaius: Rickard: I ended up making a 255m/sec flight script becuase of the telehub problem. :)

Lumiere Noir: lol

Salazar Jack: Kinds of sims: desert (monument valley), jungle, some more city sims with double prim limits, space sims, contiguous ocean sims for major boating pleasure (perhaps with a build limit to 15 meters from the surface of the water), other planet sims (Mars-ar

Adam Zaius: Which was why I landed here in a sudden. :P

Ice Brodie: that time I just said forget it and asked someone for a teleport.

Adam Zaius: (and bounced back up after landing.)

Salazar Jack: Mars-arid/windy/cold), Venus (hot, gaseous, liguid)..

Reitsuki Kojima: I second, third, and forth the notion of desert sims.

Rickard Roentgen: good, is a good incentive for them to buy mine Rei :)

Adam Zaius: Ah yeah, some more themed sims would be great. I'd also like to see the missing patches in the continent filled in/

Ice Brodie: I don't like getting shot enroute x.x

Exposition Linden: ah, oceans . . . good point . . . what do you folks think about more connected waterways and water sims?

Ice Brodie: hitting a sim edge in mid-continnent is not fun.

Salazar Jack: Yes1

Rickard Roentgen: fill in the missing spots with emtpy water sims

Lit Noir: very much want

Adam Zaius: Water sims would be great.

Rickard Roentgen: we need more boating sims

Lumiere Noir: I love connected waterways I'm all for that.

Lit Noir: and a second to Rickard for empty water lakes

Adam Zaius: Throw 10 copies of the server onto one box, just to handle the water patches. :)

Strife Onizuka: the holes in the map could be filled in with water sims

Reitsuki Kojima: Yes please :) The waterways are cool. I'd also like to see more of them linden-owned, to prevent people blocking them off.

Nidonocu Gullwing: heh.. would make for some amusing pirate boat projects ;)

Ice Brodie: water sims would work, no build,no script, I recall someone saying that yes one server could handle 10 sims, with multiple interfaces it's possible to not even have port problems.

Salazar Jack: Maybe even no building in them, just water for transport and flying through.

Strife Onizuka: and if the old sims machines are being replaced with new ones; the old servers could be used to run hte water sims

Rickard Roentgen: ya, no build, scripts allowed though

Salazar Jack: Recycle the water!

Ice Brodie: vehicles would need scripts.

Rickard Roentgen: perhaps a long return time (if it doesn't apply to objects being sat on)

Adam Zaius: Strife: I dont think the setup cost will be the problem, but the cost of hosting all the servers, although I'd love to see it happen.

Adam Zaius: Can you say battleships on a 1:1 virtual scale? :)

Rickard Roentgen: vehicle scripts run in no script areas as long as you ar sitting Ice

Exposition Linden: Would folks want to buy land in water sims or just use them?

Strife Onizuka: lol

Ice Brodie: Adam, I would be so there :P

Salazar Jack: Perhaps both...

Ice Brodie: just use, though costal sims would be sellable.

Adam Zaius: Exposition: Unfortunately, the Atlas 'sim underwater' concept failed miserably.

Salazar Jack: Some people have made wonderful fully underwater builds.

Lit Noir: The big desire would be for no-build water sims, otherwsie people would just raise the land or create obstacles

Lumiere Noir: Both I would and use water sims.

Adam Zaius: The ouranos group, if I can say so modestly, was the only group to ever actually build something in-theme with the water.

Exposition Linden: Adam, really? Why was that? I love the underwater lair.

Adam Zaius: Other people just built the usual newbie cabin, floating above the surface.

Lit Noir: But all water sims for land would be cool too

Nidonocu Gullwing: You could sell water sims on the grounds there is no land movement

Ice Brodie: Adam, do we still have that laier?

Ice Brodie: bleh, spelling x.x

Adam Zaius: Ice: No, we took it down when we got Aleph. :)

Adam Zaius: I didnt want to pay the tier + sim. :)

Reitsuki Kojima: Exposition, this is another slight side-track, but its land related. Could the auto-return time in the veihcle parks be returned to unlimited, like it used to be? Or at least set to an hour or two. The SLRA/Kazenojin dogfights are ruined rright now....

Ice Brodie: ahh, bigger one, we should invite Cory to see the new board room.

Reitsuki Kojima: Because a month or so ago the auto-return got set to one minute.

Exposition Linden: Rei . .. got it

Lit Noir: Yikes, that would be bad

Jay Fairplay: If you set a water sim to no script, wouldnt the boats and planes fail?

Rickard Roentgen: no

Reitsuki Kojima: No, jay

Salazar Jack: Is the limit of how far below the water line one can palce an object ever going to change...

Adam Zaius: Jay: There's an element of LSL which keeps scripts on for vehicles.

Ice Brodie: vehicles still work if they're in noscript x.x

Rickard Roentgen: scripts run in objects being sat on

Reitsuki Kojima: VEhicles work as long as you stay in them

Salazar Jack: so that objects don't get returned automatically?

Jay Fairplay: I see :)

Strife Onizuka: it doesn't matter if the script root prims is 15 meters over the ground it will still run

Adam Zaius: Strife: no need, llTakeControls() kills the effects of no-script.

Exposition Linden: Ah, the incorrect "return if underground" bug is fixed for 1.5, so that should cover underwater as well

Jay Fairplay: Thanks :)

Salazar Jack: Yeah!

Ice Brodie: yay.

Christopher Omega: w00t!

Adam Zaius: Infact, just the presence of llTakeControls() and a control event is all you need.

Salazar Jack: Thank you!

Ice Brodie: now, how hard will Kelly be working when 1.5 is rolled out?

Adam Zaius: You can use jumps to avoid the part of the code completely.

Jay Fairplay: hmm :)

Ice Brodie: Adam, shush.

Adam Zaius: :P

Strife Onizuka: (oh fun ^_^)

Lumiere Noir: good to know, thank you Adam

Exposition Linden: Adam . . . hmmm . . . may need to close that loophole :-)

Ice Brodie baps adam again.

Adam Zaius: Exposition: You will break vehicles in no-script area's however. :)

Adam Zaius: Ice: never fear, I know others ways too. ;)

Ice Brodie: try to keep those to yourself and the group... lest we loose them :P

Exposition Linden: yeah, so I won't remove that loophole until we've figured out better controls for scripts running on land

Exposition Linden: so not soon :-)

Adam Zaius: Hehe.

Ice Brodie: thanks Cory.

Strife Onizuka: /nod

Salazar Jack: The reason I mentioned additional city sims is that I've had a few people recently, new ones, who are looking for city sim land and there is hardly any available now.

Exposition Linden: ok, 5 minutes to go . . . what other land issues? New features you want for land? New controls? Anyone using the "charge for access to land" feature?

Adam Zaius: Salazar: Indeed, the city sims are pretty nice, and the prim bonus doesnt hurt.

Reitsuki Kojima: No to the last one, Exosition, at least not that I've seen

Nidonocu Gullwing: Yes, we need more concrete.

Adam Zaius: Exposition: I'm yet to see someoe use the land tickets. ;)

Nidonocu Gullwing: Hmm.. I suppose the last one would be good for hosting 'shows' of some sort?

Exposition Linden: Anybody tried to use them? Seems like an easy way to earn extra L$

Reitsuki Kojima: A feature I'd like is an inverted "Sell to" option on lnad... "Prevent sale to", in other words.

Ice Brodie: land tickets?

Jay Fairplay: What's that?

Adam Zaius: Exposition: Ah, but it goes straight against Dwell, plus it only works 15m into the ground.

Lit Noir: I've seen it used, but not for any parcels you would actually want to see

Reitsuki Kojima: Exposition, nobody wants to pay to get on peoples land :)

Adam Zaius: Dwelloper Incentives make people want to attract as many people as possible.

Exposition Linden: Adam, you mean 15 meters up or both ways

Ice Brodie: the lands of Dwellnor...

Jay Fairplay: Ahh..

Salazar Jack: I don't feel like I can use the Charge For Access feature unless I have some REALLY compelling content to treat them with...

Adam Zaius: Exposition: the land parcel ticket only works 15m in the air, otherwise it could effectively be used as an extortion method.

Exposition Linden: Ice, that's DwellMore :-)

Ice Brodie: right...

Exposition Linden: Adam, right . . .

Adam Zaius: but in the same note, it often limits it use.

Ice Brodie: 15 seconds, like ban.

Adam Zaius: Mind you, most people wouldnt want to pay L$, despite how little to access land.

Lumiere Noir: DwellMore...good name for a sim actually

Adam Zaius: What I'd like to see actually, as a sort of peripherally related topic is;

Lit Noir: There are things wehre the "land ticket" can still be useful, amusemane trides and such, just not seemed to be used at the moment

Adam Zaius: llTeleportUser()

Reitsuki Kojima: Exposition, quickly, a compromise on ban-limit-height

Ice Brodie: that would be so much an in-joke for SL.

Reitsuki Kojima: Make general land-restriction stay the same, only effect up so high

Lumiere Noir: :-)

Exposition Linden: Adam, there already is a teleport LSL call, right?

Reitsuki Kojima: But make specific land bans effect up to any height, to keep out trouble players

Adam Zaius: TeleportHome

Adam Zaius: Which isnt usefull. ;)

Exposition Linden: Rei, interesting idea

Adam Zaius: You can give the user a landmark, but that's also fairly useless.

Strife Onizuka: except for stargates

Ice Brodie: I'd like to see it highest build point, I mentioned the high places of a build can still get griefers.

Adam Zaius: I'd like to see the ability to open a dialog to teleport a user to a location.

Exposition Linden: Adam, massive griefing tool, right, if you could teleport them anywhere

Gabriel Spinnaker: Funny you should mention stargates...a friend of mine is building one.

Adam Zaius: same as if the user was offered a teleport from another agent.

Ice Brodie: ask a question if you're worried about griefing.

Salazar Jack: If someone hasn't mentioned this, the ability to teleport to any parcel that one owns.

Exposition Linden: ah . . . well, we're probably going to add something like that when we close the "use sit to teleport around" hole

Adam Zaius: Exposition: only if the dialog doesnt come up.

Adam Zaius: Speaking of that hole, no chance you could change it to be 'anywhere within the sim', rather than 300m.

Adam Zaius: (or just implementing the teleport, which would be great)

Salazar Jack: teleport directly to it I mean, not just to the closest telehub.

Ice Brodie: the object 'Object' would like to teleport you to this location, "go to Perry!"

Lit Noir: Like to second Salazar's request for multiple "homes" in a sense

Adam Zaius: Maybe teleport with No dialog for distances only differing on the Z axis.

Adam Zaius: But open the offer teleport dialog for anything on another X/Y point.

Ice Brodie: that'd make the teleport viable for elevators.

Exposition Linden: Adam, if I touch that code it will be to close the loophole, so you might want to distract me with a shiny object or something :-) OK folks, back to land for the last few minutes

Reitsuki Kojima: Exposition, just be carefull you dont ruin the functions use when you close it. For vehicles, for example, I've had sit-targets 20 or so feet away, legit.

Nidonocu Gullwing: Question actually, why 'can't' you have teleport to anywhere?

Adam Zaius finds a shiny object.

Nidonocu Gullwing: Why the nearest telehub for anything?

Ice Brodie: forced exploration, telehub.

Strife Onizuka: there is a way to teleport past 300 meters but you need someone on the root prim

Salazar Jack: I do like the current layout and number of teleports in relation to the number of sims as they are...

Exposition Linden: Nido because we want land to more and less remote, because it increases the chances of meeting people, because it gives us a place to give stuff to residents

Rickard Roentgen: no you don't strife

Salazar Jack: I like having to travel a short distance to get to where I'm going.

Nidonocu Gullwing: fair enough :)

Ice Brodie: I got a flyby neg at a telehub.

Adam Zaius: Rickard: Strife is right, there is another way.

Ice Brodie: IE, no real reason.

Salazar Jack: The exploring and discovering angle of it is cool.

Reitsuki Kojima: I'd also like to see more land made that's 'useable' as is, Exposition. More flat-ish land. The mountains look great, but in limited teleport land, your options are limited if you want to built 'real' type architechure.

Ice Brodie: I never even was in the donate/vote system and I want it back :P

Strife Onizuka: (or you have to be able to see the root prim)

Reitsuki Kojima: limited teraform land, even, sorry.

Salazar Jack: Yes, more flat land that wouldn't get "ruined" by the land flatteners.

Salazar Jack: lol

Jay Fairplay: Rickard: how..?

Exposition Linden: I think that those are very valid reasons, Ice. You might as well ask "Why is Second Life modeled on the real world rather than the web?" Hyperlinked rooms a la Adobe Atmosphere do not scale in interesting ways.

Rickard Roentgen: :)

Lit Noir: Yes, I would love to see more large flat-land parcels, now they get divvied up itno land for landless plots

Ice Brodie: I used to play in Atmosphere, just don't see ratings as a realistic system.

Salazar Jack: African savannah? Kansas paraireies?

Ice Brodie: a sim's roughly the size of my town, this place's actually pretty good about realism with the right builds.

Strife Onizuka: if we have kansas we will need corn plants

Lit Noir: Some historical builds I have in mind require say 10,000 m of basically flat land, unless I want to give 18th century architexts anti-grav tecnhology

Salazar Jack: With a big Mississippi-type river running through it.

Exposition Linden: lol, Strife

Salazar Jack: My uncle grows wheat in Kansas, another grass type?

Ice Brodie: historic builds, I could see a 7 modern wonders project :P 1:1 scale.

Exposition Linden: ok, folks . . . 5 o'clock PDT. Thank you all for coming out to talk about land. I have 15 minutes if folks have other questions, comments, complaints, money to give me, &c.

Ice Brodie: you started 10 minutes late.

Nidonocu Gullwing: *laughs*

Salazar Jack: Thanks!

Adam Zaius: Hehe.

Strife Onizuka: err what is &c.?

Christopher Omega: etc

Adam Zaius: Join Kelly on the IRC channel. :P

Adam Zaius: efnet / #secondlife ;)

Adam Zaius: (mind you, kelly already left for home.)

Ice Brodie: yes, yes, Cory, you want to know suggestions, listen to the secondlife IRCers.

Lumiere Noir: thanks very much Cory!

Lit Noir: thanks Cory

Ice Brodie: ran into him in-world about 15 minutes before the meeting :P

Exposition Linden: Thank you all, this was great feedback!

Jay Fairplay: Thanks Cory :)

Ice Brodie: thank you Cory for letting us bend your ear a bit.

Adam Zaius: Yeah, thanks. :)

Christopher Omega: Any progress on the outbound xmlrpc implementing?

Nidonocu Gullwing: Thanks muchly ^^

Adam Zaius: Actually general Q. with XMLRPC ->

Adam Zaius: How big is the string we can send out (and the key too for that matter)

Christopher Omega: 255 chars I think

Ice Brodie: yes, now that the meeting's over, I want outbound XML RPC, or should I show you my e-mail array to counteract it.

Adam Zaius: Drat.

Exposition Linden: Christopher, we still need to do general rate limiting for outbound traffic first. 1.7 at the soonest.

Ice Brodie: Adam, I can work with that :P

Adam Zaius: I was hoping for 4096 chars, so with the key, there's 8K per message.

Christopher Omega: rate limiting?

Exposition Linden: Well, we need to limit outbound email, xmlrpc traffic, etc per user per time.

Ice Brodie: this would hurt the cartography effort.

Adam Zaius: Other thing: I'm implementing a 'Blob' (big lump of binary) using Base64 string's, and XORing specially constructed strings.

Strife Onizuka: what is the target limit?

Ice Brodie:

Ice Brodie: good thing I'm working on a memory system. -.-

Adam Zaius: However, all the characters in SL have an ASCII index less than 128, which means that it's impossible to XOR the final bit in the string.

Christopher Omega: Why do you have a 255 character limit on xmlrpc and chat strings? (I hope I dont sound to "pushy" here ^_^)

Exposition Linden: Because we don't have rate limiting we limit the message size. String messages in general have the 255 limit within the system.

Adam Zaius: Speaking of which, is Unicode SL going to happen? :)

Christopher Omega: I see, so rate limiting will affect not just outbound rpc

Strife Onizuka: so in 1.7 there will be greater message sizes as long as we don't max the cap

Jay Fairplay: Adam: I think Blob is Binary Large OBject.. ;)

Exposition Linden: Adam, we're probably going to use UTF8 rather than unicode (way easier on our end and our font engine supports it)

Ice Brodie: yes, no more typing [ for " in international keyboards and a + key on the numaric keypad!

Jay Fairplay: but hey.. what do I know..?

Adam Zaius: Jay: Probably a dual definition, BLOB is from the MySQL docs. ;)

Exposition Linden: international keyboards are a separate problem that we have found but haven't fixed quite yet

Adam Zaius: (as Big Lump of Binary) Nidonocu Gullwing: Yes, I keep mistyping @'s instead of "

Jay Fairplay: Gotcha, they didn't want to go the MS way. ;)

Ice Brodie: I know, I sent a bug report on them.

Rickard Roentgen: oh, Explosion, increase the email subject limit

Exposition Linden: but we do know why it is happening

Ice Brodie: I've had international friends loose interest in trial from the layout.

Exposition Linden: Rickard, why?

Adam Zaius: 4096 char subjects. :D

Nidonocu Gullwing: *falls over*

Strife Onizuka: lol

Ice Brodie: heh, double our message information.

Exposition Linden: Ice, we know, we know . . . someone made a mistake 2+ years ago in our keyboard handler and fixing it is, well, tricky

Adam Zaius: Mind you, it woul dbreak the RFC, but meh. ;)

Rickard Roentgen: because I like being able to put say a location or a sim name or evena persons name in the subject

Rickard Roentgen: ands it's too short

Exposition Linden: Adam, no

Ice Brodie: AOL breaks the RFC, everyone who has a mail server breaks the RFC.

Rickard Roentgen: I had Cyberdine Vendor v1.5 Report as a subject and it's too long, broke all my vendors fora while

Exposition Linden: Hmmm . . .ok, we'll look at it but we are trying to keep those messages small

Ice Brodie: fair enough.

Rickard Roentgen: small is good, tiny is bad

Christopher Omega: Also, why are you prepending data to emails sent out by objects via llEmail, isnt that waste? or is it used assome kind of security measure?

Exposition Linden: Depends who's paying for the bandwidth :-)

Ice Brodie: security measure.

Exposition Linden: We've had many cases of people losing emailing objects, so having the location &c makes finding them much easier

Strife Onizuka: why not just have it spit back it's global cords?

Adam Zaius: Oh, I had an idea on that topic actually.

Adam Zaius: Throwing in an 'area' code into an objects key (append another four digits)

Exposition Linden: spit them back where, Strife?

Ice Brodie: Cory, I should show you MUF... it'd blow your mind, I can send e-mails from my MUCK, send XML, I want inbound though and don't have the POP3 library installed on my MUCK yet :P

Exposition Linden: MUF?

Strife Onizuka: in the message; if you know the global cords of the object hten you don't need the sim name.

Adam Zaius: So you can use a lot of the functions now limited within-one-sim to a lot more area's, as long as you have the 'area code', it knows where to ask.

Ice Brodie: Multi-User Forth.

Jay Fairplay: Multi User Fudge?

Adam Zaius: llGetRegionCorner() + llGetPos()

Ice Brodie: ProtoMUCK Varient 2.0

Salazar Jack: I am not a scriptor at all, I just have to say that this conversatioon is very enlightening!

Ice Brodie: 2 2 +

Ice Brodie: stack based languages are fun.

Rickard Roentgen: lol, polish notation?

Ice Brodie: reverse polish.

Exposition Linden: Oh, wait . . . let me pop back to Adam for a sec, so you're trying to do straigh binary storage?

Adam Zaius: Ah yeah.

Adam Zaius: I can set the last 7 of every 8 bits.

Exposition Linden: and Base64 is failing? Color me confused . . . I thought that I tested our B64 implementation pretty thoroughly

Adam Zaius: But becuase there isnt a typeable character with a >128 index; I cant set the final bit.

Adam Zaius: Is there any way to get a character >128 into SL at all?

Exposition Linden: oh, so you want to do Base128 encoding

Ice Brodie: 128's not possible with the keyboard set.

Adam Zaius: Exposition: not quite.

Ice Brodie: it'd be part of Base64's handling, we can't do the 8th bit.

Exposition Linden: why not use Base64 which works?

Ice Brodie: help us set the 8th bit.

Adam Zaius: The 8th bit, poses the problem, becuase I cant setup a string that has the 8th bit set

Ice Brodie: and Adam, i need the compressor for my spooler.

Adam Zaius: to XOR with.

Strife Onizuka: Q: for strings, are characters 7 or 8 bits?

Adam Zaius: always 8 bit, for alignment reasons. ;)

Adam Zaius: The 8th bit may be parity however.

Adam Zaius: But I havnt seen that

Strife Onizuka: hmmm i c

Exposition Linden: oh, so you want to expand bianry data within the system as opposed to just passing it through?

Ice Brodie: yes.

Adam Zaius: Yeah, pretty much. :)

Exposition Linden: no, standard lower 127 ascii stored in 8 bit bytes

Gabriel Spinnaker: gaaah, I hate how ` is directly below Escape

Ice Brodie: how do we fix that?

Exposition Linden: hmm, what are you trying to do with that?

Exposition Linden: Adam

Ice Brodie:

Exposition Linden: Nice political maps on maps.secondserver, btw

Ice Brodie: we're cartographers.

Nidonocu Gullwing: Can I ask if we are ever likey to see a skinable UI interface?

Ice Brodie: thanks, I gathered most of the data o.o

Adam Zaius: Exposition: I like implementing obscure things in LSL, So far, I've done DES, AES, RSA encryption. But I want to do LZH compression, for more efficient email sending.

Adam Zaius: Plus I can pack the data a lot better, with raw binary editing.

Adam Zaius: No need to send a number in an email as a string, if I can send it as the binary integer.

Christopher Omega: Cory, do you know about the new memory leak problem?

Christopher Omega goes and looks up the forum thread...

Jay Fairplay: I think I got a memory leak problem too..

Ice Brodie: wow, this is an old version c.c

Exposition Linden: ok, ok, I get the problem now Adam . . . let me think about that

Jay Fairplay: but it's been happening for years before I got onto SL..

Adam Zaius: Alright. :)

Jay Fairplay: Ice: that map is kinda old too, eh?

Christopher Omega:

Ice Brodie: hee, mind a low rez of Anzere Adam?

Adam Zaius: Jay: Yeah, I havnt visited the new sims yet. :)

Adam Zaius: Ice: sure

Christopher Omega: It affects strings and keys, the explanation eludes me at the moment though :-/

Ice Brodie: got it for ya.

Exposition Linden: Christopher, make sure a bug is sumitted, ok? We have a lot script bugs fixes for 1.5

Ice Brodie: Cory, this is a system I devised to deal with e-mail limitations.

Christopher Omega breathes a sigh of relief.

Salazar Jack: Cadroe Murphy posted a new map with the new sims that shows the whole Sl landmass.

Ice Brodie: there are 20 e-mail scripts and a task manager.

Ice Brodie: I'll be reducing that as soon as I can figure out a good memroy manager.

Adam Zaius: Salazar: Yeah, Cadroe is working with me on it. We just havnt shared resources yet. :)

Jay Fairplay: Salazar: where's that map..?

Adam Zaius looks at the pretty blue ball.

Salazar Jack: Let me see if I can find the link...

Ice Brodie: it's green for the most part.

Exposition Linden: ok, I need to go . . . thanks a lot! I'd stay longer, but it's my wife's birthday today :-)

Ice Brodie: the coolest part's the e-mail sinc, but that's me.

Ice Brodie: ahh, wish her a happy birthday from us at SL :P

Adam Zaius: Heh, have fun. ;)

Adam Zaius: Join the irc channel too, lots of good ideas show up. :)

Christopher Omega: Nice talking with you Cory :-)

Lumiere Noir: see you COry!

Ice Brodie: take care Cory, come into the IRC with us :P

Ice Brodie: Adam, now might be a good time to begin a meeting of the execs

Strife Onizuka: Richard is your hack for longer teleporting based on the link distance bug?

Adam Zaius: brb. :)

Rickard Roentgen: yes

Strife Onizuka: /nod

Salazar Jack:

Salazar Jack: That is the page with the link to the new map.

Jay Fairplay: Cool, thanks!

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