Forum Links: Original Post

08/12/04 - Town Hall with Haney Linden
Basic Subject: Land and Land Prices

Catherine Omega: Hey Haney.
Einsman Schlegel: greetings haney
Kim Anubis: Hi, Haney
lilone Sandgrain: hi haney welcome
Cybin Monde: greetings Haney
Leran Charlton: Hi Haney
Haney Linden: Check the events calendar for Land discussions with Lindens.
Foster Virgo shouts: TP
Neo Flight: All Go
Del Dayton: where's the best place to listen? I don't want to take up one of the 12 slots, but curious.
Backpack whispers: Haney Linden is 135cm/4'5" tall.
Catherine Omega snickers.
Haney Linden: just a sec
Leran Charlton: There is an empty chair Foster
Leran Charlton: you are gonna get cold sitting there! lol
Cybin Monde: i'm assuming James went to another meeting?
Foster Virgo: look at the zone wall haha
Einsman Schlegel: heh think so
Catherine Omega: haha
Foster Virgo: server test?
Haney Linden: there is space in the other sessions....
Catherine Omega: From what he was saying, I think he went to Robin's.
Cybin Monde: right on
Catherine Omega: "I hope this is Robin's group! Robin's awesome!" "I think this is Haney's, James. He's right over there." "Oh... well... uh..."
Catherine Omega: hehe, maybe not.
Einsman Schlegel: lol
Kim Anubis: lol
Haney Linden: heh
Del Dayton: I don't have any questions so would feel like wasting a seat, just a 'sit here and listen' point is good
Sky Zircon is online
Foster Virgo: I have tons of questions just don't know if there any good
Neehai Zapata: I am an undecided voter. Is this this right meeting?
Catherine Omega: I can preemptively stomp on them for you.
Foster Virgo: lol
lilone Sandgrain: (=
Catherine Omega: "Remember, on September 4th, vote YES on land!"
Haney Linden: ok, here we go , sorry for the delay
Ace Cassidy: this is the "hanging chad committee" of the fist SL electoral commission
Foster Virgo: I want to own land without using a 3rd party cash for Lindens
Foster Virgo: but it seems the only real way to get some now
Haney Linden: so a couple of annoncements and then you guys can give me an agenda of topics
Haney Linden: so, Private Islands will be transferrable in a couple of weeks
Haney Linden: and the general message is that we will be adding 2x as much land per week as we did over the past few months
Foster Virgo: Did that come from the Celina/Tarturus thing?
Haney Linden: ok, what topics do you want to discuss?
Colin Linden shouts: foolow me to Valmore
Foster Virgo: I felt bad for those guys
Cybin Monde: i would like to say it's excellent news about the private sims.. as well as the increase in land release
Cybin Monde: i felt bad for us too
Ace Cassidy: well.... first, I'd like to make the comment that bringing on more sims is the #1 thing I think LL can do at the moment to alleviate the land crisis
Ace Cassidy: there is obviously a strong demand for land, and creating more will make everyone a lot happier
Kim Anubis: Not everyone -- there are some avies who are making a bit of RL money from land sales.
Foster Virgo: I think the average price is insanity
Flyte Xevious: yeah
Cybin Monde: i agree, the land prices have to be resolved by some means
Flyte Xevious: yes to both
Neehai Zapata: I have 2 topics. 1) What is the financial impact for LL of the rising costs of land? 2) Will LL provide hard facts ab
Cybin Monde: and releasing even more can only help
Neehai Zapata: out land inflation to the general community?
Kim Anubis: I imagine there will be some shrieks of horror from people holding a lot of land for resale.
Flyte Xevious: only if the land barons can't buy up the land at the same rate that LL release sit
Foster Virgo: I don't understand how these people can own so much land at once and pay the tier fees on it
lilone Sandgrain: will there ever be a cap on how much land a person can own?
Haney Linden: Ok, lets start with the price of land
Cybin Monde: Flyte, good point
Foster Virgo: I mean it must be in 1000's of US dollars
Flyte Xevious: it is
Catherine Omega: The problem is striking the proper balance. We need to have some kind of freedom of being able to resell land, or of being able to own a very large amount of land, but at the same time, most people who want land can't afford it.
Foster Virgo: SL is the 73rd richest country in the world haha
Haney Linden: It's our sense that the high price of land is due to the short supply
Ace Cassidy: I concur, Haney
Haney Linden: We don't know if the price will come down but its quite possible
Cybin Monde: i believe that's only part of the problem
Leran Charlton: and the demand for land like the snow country when it is released
Cybin Monde: demand is only one point that land revolves on
Catherine Omega: Definitely. At the same time though, if you doubled the size of the world tomorrow, we would fill it all up within a day or two.
Flyte Xevious: Haney I don't know if you guys have noticed but people are messing with the price of $L on GOM
Foster Virgo: Don't the third party money to $L sites drive it up?
Cybin Monde: greed is the other
Neehai Zapata: Short supply only? You do see that 3rd parties are making a huge profit and creating an artificial scarcity of land in SL?
Leran Charlton: yes, the cost of L dollars has really escalated in the past couple of weeks
Catherine Omega: Well, I don't think you should necessarily look at people who resell land, or who sell things in SL and then convert the money as being bad.
Catherine Omega: I make about what I would make on welfare.
Leran Charlton: it was at 1.19, now at 1.30 and more
Cybin Monde: i believe the hugs unflux of new residents is also partially to "blame"
Foster Virgo: This puts creators at a huge disadvantage to land owners
Ace Cassidy: obviously, there are some out there who are profiteering on the shortage of land... these same land speculators will get their come-uppance when the price begins to fall with an increase in supply
Catherine Omega: And that's my only source of income.
Leran Charlton: my concern is that soon, the cost of lindon dollars will be too high to buy!
Leran Charlton: then what happens
Catherine Omega: I obviously can't afford to buy land, but if you can't say that only one kind of commerce is driven by greed, and another isn't.
Foster Virgo: There isn't enough land in this world for everyone to own a 512 right?
Ace Cassidy: its my belief that the high price of the L$ on GOM is related to the high cost of land
Catherine Omega: I wouldn't think so.
Ace Cassidy: as land prices fall, the L$ will fall as well
Catherine Omega: Right, land is the only real resource in SL, and you need L$ to buy it.
Haney Linden: I think thee is enough land for all Premium memebers to own 512
Foster Virgo: Then why is it so high in cost?
lilone Sandgrain: even with the major buyers??
Catherine Omega: Because 512 is like... no land?
lilone Sandgrain: scooping it up?
Foster Virgo: on the open market I mean not the landless
Cybin Monde: $$$ is why
Catherine Omega: /land 512
Prim Calculator: You can use up to 117 prims.
Catherine Omega: See? what can you do with 117?
Leran Charlton: not much!
Kim Anubis: I have done quite a bit with 117
lilone Sandgrain: true catherine
Haney Linden: not on the open market, true
Cybin Monde: creative use of prims can produce wonderful things though
Catherine Omega: Oh, I'm well aware.
Moonshine Herbst: doubling prim limits would do something to land prices.
Colin Linden shouts: ONe last "train" leaving for an open chat Follow me
Foster Virgo: What I wanted to do was have a 512 place
Foster Virgo: but only pay a land tier fee
Foster Virgo: without a premium account
Ace Cassidy: Land for the Landless should address that desire, Foster
Haney Linden: we can't double prim limits without affecting the perfomance of the sim
Kim Anubis: 512 L$ is only, what, three or four USD?
Flyte Xevious: $2.60
Cybin Monde: HAney, do you know if Havok 2 will eventually allow for greater prim allowance?
Neehai Zapata: Will LL comment on the financial impact of 3rd parties driving up the price of land in SL?
Foster Virgo: Kim some of us will never use 3rd party sites for trade and don't really trust them
Kim Anubis: If someone says they can't afford $2.60 for virtual property, well, I kinda doubt it.
Catherine Omega: My point is more that villifying these "horrid, unethical land barons" isn't really looking at the core problem, which is scarcity and the rate of release.
Haney Linden: cybin - I dont think Havok 2 will greatly affect
Kim Anubis: It is not difficult to get 512 L$
Neehai Zapata: Catherine, I don't think scarciy is the core issue.
Flyte Xevious: that's right Catherine and there's also no stopping trading real world $ for $L, and very little way to control it.
Ace Cassidy: you're absolutely correct, Catherine... bringing on new sims is the ONLY solution to the high cost of land
Foster Virgo: How many people here own more than 512 and have premium accounts?
Haney Linden: Neehai, do you mean thru currancy manipulations?
Cybin Monde: ok.. i agree though that an increase in prim allowance could create more value for smaller parcels
Catherine Omega: LL's policy of providing the tools to facilitate it help both the growth of the world, and LL's bottom line.
Kim Anubis: I own more than 512
Cybin Monde: thus creating less demand for bigger parcels
Leran Charlton: so do I
Ace Cassidy: I own >512
Neehai Zapata: This scarcity is artificial. Look at recent auctions? Instead of land going to the hands of winners to be developed, it is instead immediately on the resale market at a considerable marked up price.
Catherine Omega: If I had to have a real job, I couldn't make stuff in SL all day long.
Foster Virgo: I'm probably the only person that can speak as a new entry into the world
Neehai Zapata: Releasing more land is just playing a game with the pockets of the land barons and hoping that LL can keep a faster pace.
Flyte Xevious: Neehai is also right
Haney Linden: Neehai, if they sell the land, how is that creating scarcity?
Leran Charlton: its what they sell it for that hurts Haney
Ace Cassidy: any resident can bid on land at auction
Foster Virgo: not really
Leran Charlton: look at the price of land in snow country, its rediculous
Flyte Xevious: not every resident can afford a large piece of land and then sell off what they don't want.
Neehai Zapata: With enough capital, those that treat this as a business will still be able to afford to hold land. And at their current profit margin, holding twice as much doesn't seem like much of a hardship.
Catherine Omega: The sale is a legitimate transaction.
Cybin Monde: resold land has been driven way too high
Catherine Omega: The buyer and seller agree on a price.
Haney Linden: but unless there is collusion between big land dealers, then competition should bring the price down
Flyte Xevious: there is no competition Haney.
Catherine Omega: Exactly. And I haven't seen any evidence of price-fixing.
Flyte Xevious: that's the problem. There is no Anti-Trust mechanism here.
Neehai Zapata: Haney, you are not being realistic.
Foster Virgo: The auctions, Linden ones are what freak me out
Neehai Zapata: Look at your own data.
Foster Virgo: not just the L$ ones
lilone Sandgrain: why foster?
Ace Cassidy: if you take a look at "Leaders" and look at the top land-owners, you will see that only one person owns more than 2 sims worth... that's only about 1% of total land in-world
Catherine Omega: Yeah, but those are private sims.
Foster Virgo: because the cost people are paying is so over the top
Cybin Monde: there aren't enough "Land Barrons" to create a competitive market for driving the price down
Foster Virgo: it's like sniper bids on ebay
Einsman Schlegel: just because someone owns a lot of land doesnt mean theyre a land baron
Foster Virgo: in actual cash
Flyte Xevious: the Land Barons have groups as well
Haney Linden: perhaps there should be more barrons then?
Neehai Zapata: Barons have made enough capital to easily absorb the proposed 2x land release.
Cybin Monde: Einsman, very true
Flyte Xevious: or competition between Barons
Catherine Omega: Well, then the rate of release needs to be increased from 2x.
Neehai Zapata: Perhaps you should be charged for total land owned during a period not at one point in time.
Catherine Omega: I sold land at market prices. Does that make me a land baron?
Foster Virgo: I just don't think the average user is weilling to pay more than 15 dollars a month to play anything
Catherine Omega: I got it for L$1/sq.m.
Cybin Monde: LAnd Barrons are simply those that buy alot of land for the express purpose of selling it (in smaller amounts) for more
Catherine Omega: Should I have donated it to someone?
Ace Cassidy: I have land for sale in Hooper at 12/m2... but I'm not a land baron either
Tiger Crossing: I've missed most of the talk so far, but wanted to say that the top auction winners have had almost no effect on the land prices acording to the data I've been collecting and analysing.
Foster Virgo: Thats a basic mmorpg amount 20 tops
Ace Cassidy: are you saying I should sell it for less than the market will bare?
Foster Virgo: irl money
Neehai Zapata: Feigning ignorane of what a land baron is doesn't dismiss the issue.
Neehai Zapata: ignorance*
Flyte Xevious: they do not seem to compete with each other
Neehai Zapata: You can look at the auctions and the landscape of any new sim and identify the problem.
Haney Linden: Lets focus on the Land baron question for a mine
Haney Linden: minute
Cybin Monde: Ace, you're selling at what is a fair price according to current market value
Ace Cassidy: looking at the completed auction, I'd say that the land speculators compete a lot
Catherine Omega: So AM I a land baron or not? I bought land. I subdivided it, and I sold it.
lilone Sandgrain: can you restate it haney?
Cybin Monde: Cath, nope
Catherine Omega: And I made a 15x profit.
Einsman Schlegel: the only competetion.. is the user trying to get the land he/she wants the seller just sells it at whatever price the demand is for
Flyte Xevious: they compete on the initial land purchase not on the selling of individual plots.
Leran Charlton: I am doing the same thing Catherine, and, I don't consider myself a land baron
Catherine Omega: If there was no demand for land, prices would drop.
Neehai Zapata: You are making a living at it, you are probably a land baron, yes.
Foster Virgo: I just don't see how it's profitable
Haney Linden: Is the free market working? if not then how do we fix it?
Cybin Monde: Catherine, if that was how you spent all your SL time.. if it was your business to do that, the it would be Barron-ish
Leran Charlton: Im not
lilone Sandgrain: its working like rl heh
Foster Virgo: It's more like a sadistic game between a minority
Foster Virgo: to outbid eachother
Catherine Omega: I'm not making a living on it, I did it once. How many times do I need to do it to be a land baron?
Leran Charlton: SL isn't supporting me, its the other way around! lol
Kim Anubis: I think the issue is that some members feel that their 512 sq m allotment isn't enough
Catherine Omega: I want to quantify the point at which I become a land baron.
Ace Cassidy: the only real problem with the "free market" has been the relased land, and the scanners... and LL has already said they'll address that
Neehai Zapata: There is very little "cost of doing business" as a land baron trading the most controlled commodity in SL.
Flyte Xevious: Haney there needs to be some kind of measure to encourage competition among land barons.
Catherine Omega: Well, I want 4096m. That's what I paid for.
Foster Virgo: Land tier fees aren't enough your saying?
Einsman Schlegel: lol same here catherine.. *cough*
Haney Linden: OK lets focus on how to encourage competition
Ace Cassidy: if people are willing to pay a given price, I see no reason why a seller shouldn't get that price
Catherine Omega: I can't afford to buy it though.
Leran Charlton: it is a free market economy. If people were not willing to pay the price, the barons wouldn't be barons
Catherine Omega: Right, the value of land is determined by both the buyer and the seller.
lilone Sandgrain: well land flipped would be a measure of that
Neehai Zapata: Land tier fees are not enough. I could buy and sell 10000sqm of land and as long as I kept it steady I would pay a low tier fee.
Flyte Xevious: if I had the solution Haney I'd already offer it. There's no real way to enforce any kind of competition here.
Einsman Schlegel: theres always going to be someone willing to pay the price the seller is willing to sell it for if the user wanted it badly enough
Foster Virgo: So increase the land tier fees and solve the problem of high turnover
Ace Cassidy: is anyone suggesting that the land speculators are colluding with each other?
Cybin Monde: the problem is that while it's a free market, there are a huge amount of inexperienced SLers.. newbies if you will
Neehai Zapata: No, implement a "total land owned" fee.
Leran Charlton: if you increase the land fees Foster, Im outta here
Kim Anubis: There is competition between people buying land for resale. I've seen em running to buy land that is on sale at a good price.
Flyte Xevious: yes Ace, I am suggesting that.
Leran Charlton: Im paying the most I can pay now
Cybin Monde: and they're willing to pay insane prices.. due to a lack of knowledge of more sane pricing
Neehai Zapata: If I buy and sell 20000sqm of land, I should be taxed accordingly for passing through that land.
Tiger Crossing: Don't land tiers use the HIGHEST level of land ownership of the month? Even if it was just for an day?
Neehai Zapata: Even if I never exceeded 4000 total during that month.
Foster Virgo: It's a buyers market that way
Catherine Omega: I would TENTATIVELY concede that land speculation adds little to the community, but I don't think that there's any easy way to legislate a system that is actually fair.
Haney Linden: Tiger, yes
Einsman Schlegel: we already had a taxation system.. that isnt going to work
Foster Virgo: you get in cheap and profit no matter what
Foster Virgo: defeats the whole purpose
Flyte Xevious: Catherine that's exactly what I'm trying to say
Foster Virgo: thats like every stock on the stock market paying
Einsman Schlegel: the taxation will just encourage the seller to markup the price even higher
Catherine Omega: If you attempt to put some kind of restriction on land ownership or land resale, or SOMETHING, right, it just increases the overhead.
Kim Anubis: I think it would be better to think of a solution that enables people, not one that restricts other people.
Ace Cassidy: mark my words... if LL spends a few months bring land onto the grid faster than new premium accounts are created, the price of land WILL fall
Foster Virgo: Ok for example...
Foster Virgo: How long did it take for the snow sim turnover
Flyte Xevious: and that's why the best solution is to expand the amount of land available at a rate higher than land barons can sustain, but that may be very difficult.
Catherine Omega: And if you get banned for doing $horrible_land_practice_A, people are going to get screwed, even if they aren't doing anything overtly horrible.
Foster Virgo: before it was auctioned then for sale cubes all over
Foster Virgo: it was instant
lilone Sandgrain: i sold a plot in snow land and had to resell at a loss
Cybin Monde: maybe a new continent could be an answer?
lilone Sandgrain: and it took forever to sell
Neehai Zapata: Bottom line is that content is inaccessible to many residents because a few are using the system for RL income.
Foster Virgo: were there spinning cubes everywhere?
Neehai Zapata: Perhaps that is how you want your SL, but it is not how I want mine.
Foster Virgo: I gotta say thats a huge turnoff to anyone looking for land
Flyte Xevious: another thing is that land baroning doesn't generate content
Catherine Omega: Well, why shouldn't I, Neehai?
Catherine Omega: I make a lot of scripts that people want.
Neehai Zapata: Why should you?
Catherine Omega: I spend a lot of time doing that.
Kim Anubis: But some people enjoy land baroning, as a game -- it's their way of being entertained here
Catherine Omega: Why shouldn't I be compensated for my time?
lilone Sandgrain: true kim
Kim Anubis: Just as some will enjoy playing at politics
Cybin Monde: a huge amount of land introduced as a second continent would make the new continent more valuable.. creating a drop in prices for this continent
lilone Sandgrain: realitors like in rl
Ace Cassidy: actually... land speculators DO add something to the market... being a steady source as both buyers and sellers, they keep the market liquid
Flyte Xevious: perhaps instead of focusing on controlling land barons, there should be more of a reward system for content creation, beyond the current system. That would help offset the cost of land.
Cybin Monde: after the second continent was added, land could still be added to this one
Neehai Zapata: Yes, but I may enjoy shooting people, however as a society, we deem that actions a few find enjoyable that stifle the enjoyment of the majority are unacceptable. Why should this be different?
Neehai Zapata: Why is this not "griefing"?
Foster Virgo: Ok put it into perspective
Kim Anubis: You can shoot people in SL
Foster Virgo: You just joined SL
Foster Virgo: You want a piece of land to build on
Leran Charlton: but you may get shot in return
Einsman Schlegel: i think the way that LL is releasing sims.. could be possibly changed.. perhaps as 'separate' continents.. instead of a continuous world
Catherine Omega: So your logic is that I should be able to make scripts, but not to exchange my Lindens for USD?
Foster Virgo: You look at whats for sale and think wow
Foster Virgo: so then you go to the land for landless
Neehai Zapata: Scripts and Land are different. Obviously different commodities.
Foster Virgo: you have to immediatly jump to a premium account
Foster Virgo: and then can you preview what you get before or after?
Haney Linden: The land for landless is really designed as a starter program
Catherine Omega: But I sold land once! Should I not have been allowed to do that?
Neehai Zapata: Catherine, I answered your question.
Flyte Xevious: the land for the landless is a symptom of the land cost issue we're discussing now...
Tiger Crossing: I think adding new sims ONE at a time would reduce the "scramble" that each BIG addition causes in the auction prices.
Foster Virgo: can you see what your offered before buying into the 10 a month?
Ace Cassidy: L4L is a great program... its how I got my start
Haney Linden: in 1.5 you can preview Land for Landless
Catherine Omega: I'm not an evil person. I just want to pay my rent.
Foster Virgo: what are we at 1.4...?
Flyte Xevious: 1.4.10
Haney Linden: yes
Foster Virgo: ok
Haney Linden: in the last month of 1.4 prob
Neehai Zapata: Pay your rent, just not at the expense of so many. Land Barony is simple deprivation of resources for personal gain.
Kim Anubis: hmm so you're saying that SL shouldn't be a capitalist state?
Moonshine Herbst: Another thing, how about lowering the montly cost of a private sim? I mean, what kind of servers are they? I rent dual xeons with 2GB ram for less than $195 per month.
Neehai Zapata: No RL commodity works in this way.
Cybin Monde: wasn't there supposed to be a second continent? that whole Echo Omega thing or something? and that was supposed to have a governmental body, right?
Ace Cassidy: actually, content providors are benefitting indirectly by the current land market... its the land market that is supporting the L$ on GOM, so content producers can realize more US$ for their work
Leran Charlton: Im not ready to join the communist party thank you
Einsman Schlegel: errr
Haney Linden: Moonshine - youve got to pay our salaries and investors too
Tiger Crossing: Land sales in-game don't remove L$ from the game. The US$ that get extracted from the operation are a seperate system feeding off the friction of moving L$ around SL.
Catherine Omega: Yes, the larger economy also allows content creators to make more money. It's a good thing.
Catherine Omega: The problem is solely one of demand.
Foster Virgo: If your serious about being a texture artist or 3d animator modeler whatever
Foster Virgo: Your not coming here to make irl money lol
Neehai Zapata: I am shocked that those making the money think it is a good thing.
Foster Virgo: I can tell you that much
Neehai Zapata: :)
Catherine Omega: You can bemoan these wicked, wicked capitalists and land barons all you wish, but the fact remains that there ARE people who will pay it.
Cybin Monde: but most of those people don't know any better
Flyte Xevious: actually I thought land sales in the snow sims kind of stalled out?
Catherine Omega: Well, if it's any consolation, Neehai, I don't make very much.
Neehai Zapata: Yes, but that is not the point. While some are willing and able, there are others who cannot afford it.
Kim Anubis: And people need to raise the money to buy the land, so they create content to sell, which makes this a richer world.
Einsman Schlegel: perhaps a little marketing lesson would be needed in the tutorial area perhaps.. for the user to get used to what is out here
Haney Linden: Neehai - we think that content producers should make real US money
Neehai Zapata: The cost of living a SL is artificially inflated to compensate for a lack for RL for some.
Foster Virgo: didn't GOM post there yearly earning at like 12,000
Catherine Omega: Yes, but saying that land sales shouldn't be permitted isn't going to solve it. There will always be a way to launder money.
Cybin Monde: actually, i think the trend is to buy the money from GOM
Foster Virgo: thats like less than porr
Foster Virgo: and seems like fulltime job
Flyte Xevious: unfortunately I think "content producers" to Linden Lab mean people with buildings
Ace Cassidy: I have no doubt that the vast majority of L$ changing hands on GOM is related to land sales
Foster Virgo: especially if you have to hire out
Neehai Zapata: We are not talking about content producers. Land is not produced content by anyone other than LL and you are obviously making more money now than 6 months ago on land.
Neehai Zapata: If that is your objective, LL should state such.
Haney Linden: We didn't expect to reward people for land speculation
Ace Cassidy: I would guess that LL is in business to make US$... and LL will maximize their revenue by creating land
Ace Cassidy: but I can imagine that bringing on new sims is not a trivial effort
Foster Virgo: Thats what I don't get
Neehai Zapata: If people were buying sims, forming them and reselling, I would have no problem.
Cybin Monde: i also believe LL are very proud of the creative community here and wish to bolster it however they can
Ace Cassidy: I'd love to see the computer room where the sims are racked up
Neehai Zapata: Island sims.
Foster Virgo: why give the lifetime $10
Flyte Xevious: Haney why do you only reward those who provide content in the form of buildings?
Foster Virgo: when alot of people are gonna eat massive bandwidth
Haney Linden: but we are trying to create a system that rewards in real money those who entertain others and the systems is a free market
Einsman Schlegel: for people who just maybe want to socialize?
Foster Virgo: and what 16% own land is it?
Catherine Omega: Well, than that's an extention of the island resale program.
Foster Virgo: that means the rest are not paying a cent for server maitnence past the initial fee
Foster Virgo: and aren't going to at the current land prices
Haney Linden: Flyte, you mean the dwell rewards?
Flyte Xevious: yes
Catherine Omega: Well, they are -- their tier fee.
Haney Linden: Content creators can sell their goods and exchange L$ for US$
Foster Virgo: ok for instance the guy posted on the forum how to play SL for free with land
Flyte Xevious: it seems like it reinforces the concept of owning and developing land when there's so many other ways to generate content
Foster Virgo: if you use the GOM
Foster Virgo: you don't spent a dime
Foster Virgo: take your 500 stipend
Ace Cassidy: hehe... that was my post
Neehai Zapata: People love this world. I love this world. People pay the prices NOT because they can afford them but because they have no choice.
Catherine Omega: I'm not sure that dwell is enough for anyone to make much money on.
Foster Virgo: and bonus or whatever
Foster Virgo: yeah see thats gaming the system so it's obviously faulty
Catherine Omega: If I REALLY scraped... I could probably pay it.
Foster Virgo: in it's current state
Catherine Omega: I choose not to.
Catherine Omega: It's not that I don't want to, it's that I like eating.
Ace Cassidy: my Tribal Drums is consistently on the top 1 or 2 pages of Places, and I'm lucky if I make L$500/wk in dwell
Ace Cassidy: dwell isn't a real money maker
Kim Anubis: dwell adds to your overall ranking
Catherine Omega: Yeah, it seems to me that if it were to be used as a system of rewarding popular places, it'd have to be a couple times more valuble, at least.
Flyte Xevious: Haney do you have a projected number of total sims in the contiguous world in say 4 weeks time?
Kim Anubis: What do you think of the growing apartment rental market in SL, Haney?
Neehai Zapata: I woul
Ace Cassidy: Club Elite might be pulling down L$5K/wk... but that's only about US$25/wk
Haney Linden: Fylte - we should be adding them at twice the past rate
Catherine Omega: Yeah, that sounds about right. I make about that from public scripts.
Foster Virgo: How do these sims work anyway?
Neehai Zapata: What is the past rate and proposed rate in hard sim numbers?
Haney Linden: Kim - I like the apartment trend.
Catherine Omega: ("public" as in, "not custom")
Foster Virgo: how many servers are on each sim?
Foster Virgo: each sim is like a part of a server?
Catherine Omega: One server per sim.
Flyte Xevious: Haney - so you've added like 60 in the past 2 months?
Flyte Xevious: or more?
Kim Anubis: Seems to me that encouraging apartment rentals might help a lot with the land situation.
Foster Virgo: thats a huge server farm
Haney Linden: Flyte - thats about right
Flyte Xevious: so 60 a month now?
Foster Virgo: how can you add that much rackspace?
Haney Linden: Flyte, maybe less
Tiger Crossing: Apartments, at least the TigerTor free apartments, seem VERY popular. 6-12 potentials ask every day.
Haney Linden: in the ball park
Cybin Monde: wow!
Foster Virgo: thats bling bling
Catherine Omega: So can you sustain this?
Flyte Xevious: yeah that seems like you're gonna need to buy a bigger office
Haney Linden: Catherine, we prob can
Foster Virgo: and rent in San Fran is hardcore hehe
Cybin Monde: is LL buying a new building to fit all the servers? lol
Foster Virgo: you guys are rich
Ace Cassidy: personally, I'm kind of looking forward to the speculators running to cover their investments as the price of land and L$ on GOM begin to fall with a faster land influx
Catherine Omega: I mean, they're still around $800 USD per server, correct?
Haney Linden: A bit more I thinkg
Kim Anubis: I don't look forward to someone suffering misfortune.
Foster Virgo: you should drop the lifetime thing and just offer the trial
Tiger Crossing: Probably as the summer ends, prices on everything in SL will fall slightly... But never back to, say, April's prices.
Foster Virgo: seriously
Cybin Monde: but hey.. people are paying more than that for pieces of a sim in auction..
Catherine Omega: I wasn't sure how far the price had fallen yet.
Catherine Omega: Why, Foster?
Foster Virgo: then make it 15 for basic membership
Kim Anubis: The people who've invested in all that real estate -- the "land barons" --
Catherine Omega: Isn't having more people in SL good?
Kim Anubis: have bought that land at auction and
Kim Anubis: have paid Haney's salary
Foster Virgo: becuase thats what every other current mmorpg does
Foster Virgo: and it works for them
Flyte Xevious: this isn't a mmorpg
Catherine Omega: That's what SL used to do.
Catherine Omega: They don't anymore.
Foster Virgo: same costs
Neehai Zapata: it functions like a mmorpg
Catherine Omega: Why DID you guys do that, anyway, Haney?
Kim Anubis: If the land speculation market crashes, it could mean less income for LL
Haney Linden: Charging you guys for land has made it possible to offer the one time basic membership.
Neehai Zapata: much less Ki
Neehai Zapata: Kim
Catherine Omega: I mean, am I correct in assuming that it was because almost everyone who signs up also wants to pay a land fee?
Catherine Omega: Ahh, okay.
Foster Virgo: See I was right I knew I was getting a free ride
Foster Virgo: heh
Catherine Omega: Well, it seems to me that people who don't want land shouldn't necessarily be in the same category as those who do.
Kim Anubis: There's a balancing act between making the price of land accessible for a lot of customers and
Catherine Omega: At least in terms of how much they pay to get into SL.
Kim Anubis: making enough money for LL to profit reasonably.
Tiger Crossing: Land prices will never fall completely. There are always new players who want a place to call their own. They will buy the price up even if no one else does.
Cybin Monde: it does make sense to offer the two categories
Ace Cassidy: I'm curious, Haney... of ALL the land on the grid, do you know what percentage is retained by LL as public land?
Haney Linden: More happy, long term customers is more important than high auction prices
Cybin Monde: i like that
Leran Charlton: Thats the primary reason I came to SL from There! I spent a year in There and was Never able to buy land or own a house
Haney Linden: we usually hold back 15% of each sim approx
Leran Charlton: SL has provided me with both.
Foster Virgo: I still don't get how you guys profit
Foster Virgo: one sim a server
Leran Charlton: I see nothing wrong with people speculating in land.
Kim Anubis: Glad to know you're taking the long view at LL.
Foster Virgo: thats alot of bandwidth and hardware
Leran Charlton: If you don't like the price, you don't buy it!
Leran Charlton: its just that simple
Neehai Zapata: In the current system I see a big problem with people speculating in land.
Neehai Zapata: An unregulated economy is unrealistic.
Leran Charlton: People have speculated in land since they made money!
Neehai Zapata: When you are competing with those tranferring $ into a regulated economy.
Ace Cassidy: but didn't EVERY plot bought by a speculator start out as auction land that ANYONE could have outbid the speculator for?
Haney Linden: how can we make land cheaper except by adding sims?
Cybin Monde: the problem with the prices is that some of us remember when land was $2L/2m or so
Foster Virgo: Lets go around the ring and say how much you pay to play the game each month
Leran Charlton: Yes it did Ace
Kim Anubis: Direct sales instead of auctions
Foster Virgo: I'll start hehe 0$
Tiger Crossing: You can't, Haney... Not without making arbitrary rules.
Catherine Omega: Nobody's transferring money into SL. There's a finite amount of money in the SL economy, though more comes in as more users are added.
Leran Charlton: I dont think thats any of your business Foster.
Catherine Omega: And it goes out as people pay the various money sinks.
Foster Virgo: money sinks are to few
Leran Charlton: what I spend in this game is my business only
Tiger Crossing: I pay $125 right now.
Moonshine Herbst: $40
Ace Cassidy: weekly allowances and dwell at to the money supply... land auction in L$, and content uploads take L$ out of the supply
Foster Virgo: the only money sinks I've seen are truley remarkable scripted objects
Haney Linden: Neehai, do you have a proposal?
Ace Cassidy: I pay $75/month, and barely make enough selling content to pay my fees
Neehai Zapata: I pay zero. I liquidated all of my land pending response from LL on the state of the game. I feel high land prices have had a rippling negative effect and will continue to do so.
Foster Virgo: stuff like the seburo and the animation override
Catherine Omega: Right, but when you buy something, th money isn't going anywhere, Foster, it's just transferring to a new owner. I mean stuff that takes money out of the economy, like if I pay Haney L$1.
Tiger Crossing: I'm sorry if this was mentioned before, everyone, but Haney, is there thought about letting residents put land up for auction?
Cybin Monde: Tiger, excellent point
Haney Linden: does anyone have a proposal to take a look at?
Foster Virgo: thats what I said there aren't money sinks
Foster Virgo: enough
Catherine Omega: Ahh, okay.
Cybin Monde: player created auctions would help i believe
Ace Cassidy: I concur, Cybin
Haney Linden: Tiger - that was part of the plan originally but not on front burner
Neehai Zapata: I believe strongly that their should be an overhead taxation on the purchase and sale of land. I also think LL cannot continue to be hands off in regulating its economy. It is irresponsible.
Flyte Xevious: maybe you need to release land in response to the cost $L in addition to the cost of 1 sqm of land.
Flyte Xevious: I'm just guessing
Neehai Zapata: You are the rulers of the land.
Cybin Monde: maybe releasing more L$ into the economy?
Foster Virgo: exactly it's like a kingdom
Tiger Crossing: I think buy putting all the land in one place (to buy, not just to look at, like the Find window) it would help stabilize prices.
Flyte Xevious: no then this would be There, Cybin
Foster Virgo: you have to tax everything
Haney Linden: If we released money into SL , how should we do it?
Foster Virgo: never been there myself
Cybin Monde: i'm not suggesting alot, but maybe the entire economy is on an upswing in cost?
Ace Cassidy: give it to me :;-)
Kim Anubis: Increase stipends
Neehai Zapata: Reward the activities you want to flourish.
Foster Virgo: the snowboards were cool
Catherine Omega: I strongly disagree with that. I see this as a fairly basic issue of supply outstripping demand.
Flyte Xevious: some kind of reward system for content developers other than the current system Haney.
Foster Virgo: more linden content for sal
Cybin Monde: especially if clubs were to start charging for entrance or something
Foster Virgo: Have been sell the snowboard jump balls
Tiger Crossing: I guess you want automated systems of reward, Haney, and not "Hire lots of people to look at stuff and make decisions on wh gets how much"?
Ace Cassidy: there are only really 2 "rewards" in SL... dwell, and ratings bonus
Foster Virgo: the script that animates the jump on the snowboards
Cybin Monde: Haney, maybe increase stipends by 5%?
Haney Linden: Can you explain this? - Tiger Crossing: I think buy putting all the land in one place (to buy, not just to look at, like the Find window) it would help stabilize prices.
Neehai Zapata: There is a reason why clothing designers and not land barons are highlighted in SL videos.
Ace Cassidy: there should be rewards for other aspects of SL life as well
Cybin Monde: rewards are a bit complicated for all to benefit
Catherine Omega: Neehai, couldn't I just launder money?
Catherine Omega: I mean, say I was selling some land.
Catherine Omega: So the buyer pays me, I release, then they claim it.
Tiger Crossing: Haney: I think one of the problems is the instant gratification factor. A player sees a plot of land they like, they have enough money to pay the (over-high) price, it's just a game, so they buy it.
Catherine Omega: How would you tax that situation?
Kim Anubis: To them, it wasn't overly high
Flyte Xevious: true there's no real economic consequences for bad decisions here
Foster Virgo: you have to hold land for a month or more no resale
Tiger Crossing: If the main way to buy land is to look at an auction house listing, where all the numbers are next to each other, AND you have to wait a few days, maybe inch up the price against other bidders...
Catherine Omega: But what if I can't afford my tier fees?
Neehai Zapata: Catherine, you are taxed for holding the land, not the money.
Kim Anubis: I don't like that idea, Foster
Foster Virgo: why not?
Ace Cassidy: what else, besides attracting a lot of AV's to a single location, and getting AV's to attact positive ratings does LL value, Haney?
Tiger Crossing: ...It gives time to make GOOD decisions, AND gives them the info to make them.
Kim Anubis: Because I might want to resell a piece of land
Foster Virgo: how does it feel to want hehe
Haney Linden: Ace - we need to figure how to get you all to build games for each other
Kim Anubis: You know, Foster, I made the money for my land in-game
Catherine Omega: I told you guys, Haney.
Cybin Monde: the Game DEvelopment competition did alot for that
Kim Anubis: I made a lot of chairs, dude
Foster Virgo: I believe you
Flyte Xevious: Haney what doy ou mean?
Catherine Omega: SL's greatest attaction is the potential to create.
Haney Linden: Like Tiger's Deus Ex game
Tiger Crossing: (I'm working on a new game where players breed critters to fight in an arena. Genetic algorithims are fun.
Ace Cassidy: I think the problem with games is that they are naturally huge undertakings... the incentives would have to be large too
Cybin Monde: sweet
Kim Anubis: If I work in my spare time to make items that people want to buy, and I sell them,
Kim Anubis: and I buy land with that money
Catherine Omega: Unfortunately, there are some annoying limits to what we can do with making games.
Kim Anubis: I don't want to be restricted as to what I can do with that land
Cybin Monde: Haney, like Tartarus?
Kim Anubis: If I own it, it's mine to dispose of as I choose.
Kim Anubis: It is not hard to make money here
Catherine Omega: Right, say I buy a plot of land. Say my neighbour and I want to trade. If I had to wait a month to do it, that'd be very inconvenient.
Kim Anubis: You can answer a trivia question and get a hundred bucks. lol
Neehai Zapata: It is not hard for some to make money here Kim.
Kim Anubis: Can you enter a free raffle?
Neehai Zapata: We can't have people arguing both sides.
Haney Linden: The way that SL will work is if a small percentage of residents make RL money by entertaining the rest of us.
Cybin Monde: Tartarus will (hopefully) be right in cue with that idea, Haney
Foster Virgo: the most enternaining ones don't
Kim Anubis: I think part of the issue is the ongoing problem of people being hesitant to spend money playing in a virtual world
Catherine Omega: I agree. LL's best business decision was to allow 3rd-party markets to exchange cash for Lindens.
Kim Anubis: Some people say that, for example, 512 L$ is a lot of money
Tiger Crossing: Who here (who has land to sell) would rather put it up for a 3-day auction and get the best price and KNOW that it will sell in three days.... OR guess at a price the market will bear and wait hopefully that a buyer will fly by?
Neehai Zapata: Land specuation is highly entertaining.
Haney Linden: how do we change things so that the entertaining ones do?
Neehai Zapata: For me.
Flyte Xevious: Haney I think the script language needs to evolve a generation or two before that can happen enough to attract people away from traditional game environments
Foster Virgo: I think a 3rd party trading is the worst idea ever for any online game
Catherine Omega: I agree. The LSL limitations and the UI limitations are too great right now.
Cybin Monde: Flyte, i agree.. a growth in LSL will definitely help all of this
Catherine Omega: And most of them would agree with you, Foster.
Haney Linden: If land speculators are in collusion, why are auction prices so high?
Catherine Omega: But SL's strength is that it's not necessarily a game.
Kim Anubis: They aren't in collusion
Foster Virgo: I would quite any mmorpg the day they went with that system
Ace Cassidy: the land speculators would cut each other's throats, if given the option
Neehai Zapata: They are high enough to shut out the average resident.
Cybin Monde: non-speculators drive up the lower prices.. then the speculators come in and buy it for an amount even higher
Catherine Omega: Right, but SL isn't an MMORPG.
Tiger Crossing: I've been studing the auctions, and just today I made a graph that shows how much higher or lower than the average dayly close price the top land buyers paid.
Foster Virgo: thats why I don'w quite lol
Neehai Zapata: It acts like an MMORPG.
Foster Virgo: even though it offers unfair advantage
Foster Virgo: creating a class system
Foster Virgo: that most people log on to escape in the first place
Catherine Omega: It's an MMO engine and architecture... but there's no game in it.
Foster Virgo: cast system rather
Neehai Zapata: I disagree.
Cybin Monde: i explained something to my sister today
Neehai Zapata: SL is very much a game. Intended for entertainment.
Tiger Crossing: The result was that most of their bids were UNDER the average. And I was counting EVERYONE that had won more than 20 auctions since day. THEY aren't all land barons.
Cybin Monde: that SL can very well end up being the basis for the "next internet"
Foster Virgo: I'm poor IRL I get to log on and get reminded of that
Tiger Crossing: Heck. Even I've won 17...
Foster Virgo: by a virtual cast system based on irl money
Ace Cassidy: I'm sorry that there are others willing to spend more US$ for their SL experience than you, Foster... but I'm not sure LL can address that
Foster Virgo: lol
Cybin Monde: i don't see SL as a game at all.. i see it as an interactive internet.. or birthplace of such
Haney Linden: Im afraid we depend on it
Tiger Crossing: Very good point, Ace.
Catherine Omega: I'm relatively wealthy in SL. I'm dirt poor IRL. I'd be poor in SL too, but I have to work really hard to do it.
Foster Virgo: well atleast I'm not ugly
Einsman Schlegel: and who says you have to be here to make money anyway?
Foster Virgo: and I have a good gun ;0
Neehai Zapata: I am relatively wealthy in RL but poor in SL. I do think that definitely plays into it.
Kim Anubis: So do you think it isn't possible to have fun in SL unless you own land and stuff?
Neehai Zapata: People pay more for other goods in game based on quality. Land is different.
Cybin Monde: nope.. you can have fun no matter what
Foster Virgo: I think it's fun without land
Flyte Xevious: people define "fun" differently. "fun" to me is creating things, not hosting events.
Einsman Schlegel: so do i
Foster Virgo: but nothing you create is permanent besides your inv
Neehai Zapata: There is infinite fabric, woods and paint in SL, but limited land. It cannot be treated the same.
Foster Virgo: and the free markets are hell
Ace Cassidy: 84% of the residents of SL seem to enjoy themselves without owning land
Foster Virgo: they change hands so often it's just a total pain
Tiger Crossing: Pre 1.2, the main complaint was prim hogs taking away the fun from people who paid just as much US$ to play. Now the main complaint is high land prices.
Catherine Omega: Okay, so Linden NEEDS a way for content creators to be rewarded. If adding more land isn't going to fix the accessibility problem, how do you propose to regulate it?
Neehai Zapata: It must be more closely regulated to prevent the problems we are facing now.
Catherine Omega: More to the point, how can Linden Lab stop me from being a land baron, if I so choose?
Foster Virgo: A self government bwahaha
Kim Anubis: I think if people like the content you create they'll be willing to pay you
Ace Cassidy: I disagree, Neehai... more land needs to be brought onto the grid, so that the increased supply will push prices down... and Haney has already stated that LL is working on that
Catherine Omega: Give me a scenario and I will demonstrate why it won't work.
Kim Anubis: I bet Ace, for example, could charge admission for his drum circles
Neehai Zapata: They can't stop you, but they can prevent it from being so easily profitable. I would be curious to know the profitability of this one business related to other sales in game.
Tiger Crossing: Nothing can or should stop you from "baroning", Cath.
Foster Virgo: If I buy something I dont' like I can instantly transport to the sellers home, shoot him in the face, charge his credit card
Tiger Crossing: I just probably won't buy land from you then.
Foster Virgo: and order a pizza to his home address :0
Foster Virgo: lol
Tiger Crossing: But I'm sure someone, and new player with that fresh Premium smell, will come along and pay it.
Catherine Omega: Well, how do you propose to do that, Neehai? I paid my money for my tier. Why should I have to pay more just to fill it?
Neehai Zapata: Why should you not?
Haney Linden: I think that in a few months, that land speculators won't make very much of a margin, unless they add value to the land
Foster Virgo: yeah that fresh 500L?
Leran Charlton: why should you?
Catherine Omega: Because I already paid the Lindens for it?
Tiger Crossing: A agree, Haney.
Leran Charlton: how many times should we have to pay?
Ace Cassidy: I think you're right, Haney
Catherine Omega: As long as you stick with your plan to increase the rollout, yeah.
Haney Linden: I think with increase supply, and increased competition the profits will be small
Ace Cassidy: sims, sims!!! we want sims!!!!!
Neehai Zapata: There should be a total cost of doing business. You want the real world benefits but not the real world responsibility.
Cybin Monde: the increase in land releases will definitely help
Catherine Omega: Increasing supply is the only effective way to do it.
Tiger Crossing: Land Barons seem to be all flash and no retort from what I've been seeing. Even more land will "marginalize" them even moew.
Leran Charlton: no, I want the SL benefits and I pay for them
Leran Charlton: Im already in the RL lol
Neehai Zapata: I pay also
Neehai Zapata: Everyone pays.
Catherine Omega: There is. I say, "do you want to charge me rent?" and the person who owns the land my store is on says, "no, that's okay."
Foster Virgo: lets fly around the snow sims and look at the pretty spinning cubes
Catherine Omega: It just seems like attempting to restrict what people can do if they own land will only drive the total cost up.
Foster Virgo: The chairlifts are awsome
Tiger Crossing: But Haney... With more and more land entring via acutions, and even MORE land feeling the churn of in-game sales......... We're going to need some way to put it all together in some manageable form.
Catherine Omega: If I pay.... however much a month 4096m is...
Foster Virgo: it's just once you get to the bottom of the hill you hit a for sale cube hehe
Catherine Omega: Why should I have to pay that for just the tier, and then more for however much of my tier I'm able to fill?
Haney Linden: Right Tiger , good point
Neehai Zapata: Catherine, that is the minimum you pay. People should be charges based on total land turnover in a month.
Cybin Monde: i wold like to see player auctions moved up on the time-table as well
Catherine Omega: Well, okay... how much money then?
Haney Linden: Ok, noted, player auctions
Catherine Omega: That's a reasonable money sink.
Catherine Omega: I think it could very easily be bypassed, however.
Haney Linden: Player auctions for $L right?
Catherine Omega: Areyou talking about a land TAX, or a land resale tax?
Foster Virgo: make them all irl $
Neehai Zapata: An ownership tax.
Foster Virgo: on your account card
Cybin Monde: perhaps we could have the option of selling at a fixed price or going to auction?
Tiger Crossing: Maybe on a web page....Maybe in-game. If you get the interface right, it's more a matter of choice on LL's part. In-game would be easier for the players. On a website would be easier for LL to implement.
Catherine Omega: I think it'd have to be L$.
Cybin Monde: HAney, correct
Ace Cassidy: we already have an ownership tax
Einsman Schlegel: uhm NO
Kim Anubis: If you make it RL $, then GOM is gonna profit on it lol
Neehai Zapata: Ace, I am not talking about tier fees.
Foster Virgo: omg!
Neehai Zapata: Stop feigning ignorance.
Leran Charlton: People pay money to buy their land, then they pay a tier fee based on the amount of land they own. Now you're saying they should pay to sell the land?
Foster Virgo: 3rd party sites first of all
Einsman Schlegel: the whole point of having to PAY for land is to GET RID OF TAX
Tiger Crossing: Haney, Of course for L$... I don't think you wnat to be doing all the CC transactions for players to use US$, would you?
Catherine Omega: We DO have an ownership tax. You want two of them. I say that one is enough.
Foster Virgo: If there linden supported should'nt you like have a discaimer int he tos or something?
Neehai Zapata: I say that one is not enough.
Catherine Omega: But wouldn't that make land even less accessible?
Catherine Omega: I know I certainly couldn't afford to own any.
Flyte Xevious: yeah
Catherine Omega: Whereas now, the only barrier is the land price, not the tier fee.
Flyte Xevious: that would drive up the land baron's overhead and thus the cost of land
Neehai Zapata: If you only have your land for that month, then you only pay your tier fee. However, if you deal in holding large quantities of land passing into your posession, you should be charged.
Cybin Monde: here's an idea: what abou limited bids in auction?
Neehai Zapata: It would drive up overhead and make the raw profit less.
Foster Virgo: here comes the sun
Flyte Xevious: how about lowering the tier upgrade grace period from 1 week to 2-3 days, Haney?
Neehai Zapata: People will still only pay the price the market will bear.
Foster Virgo: this debug thing is the best
Kim Anubis: Better to come up with ways to empower more members, rather to to restrict or tax others
Neehai Zapata: Isn't that the argument?
Tiger Crossing: I thought it was 24 hours...
Foster Virgo: should add that to the newb notecard
Catherine Omega: Okay, so say I have 512m. Say someone else wants to buy it. I can't make it worth my while at the price they ask, so I charge more. They agree. Is that a good thing?
Haney Linden: tier upgrade grace period?
Leran Charlton: I agree
Kim Anubis: I don't feel I should be penalized for being good at a game
Flyte Xevious: I thought you got a week but perhaps I'm wrong.
Leran Charlton: taxation is not the answer
Neehai Zapata: It's not a game.
Neehai Zapata: Or so I am told.
Kim Anubis: Sure it is
Flyte Xevious: if you buy more land than you have allotment
Kim Anubis: Real estate market is a game irl, too
Leran Charlton: I don't care what name you put to it, its something I play everyday
Kim Anubis: so's a business of selling furniture
Neehai Zapata: Yes, and real estate is regulated in RL. You can't have it both ways!
Haney Linden: Ok, so to wrap up....
Neehai Zapata: You want all the benefits and none of the responsibility.
Haney Linden: we need more sims
Foster Virgo: Tax bad, Money good
Catherine Omega: Haney, the only thing I can really see wrong with your plan is that it might not be enough.
Foster Virgo: lol
Kim Anubis: How am I responsible to you, Neehai?
Cybin Monde: right, more sims = good
Leran Charlton: why not. I have enough responsibilities and not enough benefits in RL now.
Haney Linden: its true, we dont know that more sims will bring the price down
Tiger Crossing: I think more land and a better system to buy and sell it (with auctions for players) would do 90% of the job of leveling off land prices.
Catherine Omega: Well, an INFINITE number of them would.
Catherine Omega: The problem is one of scaling.
Ace Cassidy: I'm pretty sure it will go a long way, Haney
Haney Linden: But lets see where we are in three months
Leran Charlton: sounds good Haney
Leran Charlton: thanks for moderating
Cybin Monde: agreed.. more land + player auctions = decrease in land costs
Foster Virgo: Land for Landless
Haney Linden: ok, any last min closings?
Foster Virgo: is more like land for clueless
Ace Cassidy: and I think you need to also consider other financial incentives besides just dwell and ratings
Cybin Monde: i would like to thank you for this time, HAney
Haney Linden: right Ace
Flyte Xevious: I second that Ace
Foster Virgo: the forum needs to be updated with all the stuff I asked
Neehai Zapata: Can I strongly object to only increased land.
Haney Linden: Yes, Neehai, noted
Foster Virgo: like account specifics to be eligible and that you can't see what you will get befor
Tiger Crossing: You guys have a great thing going here, you are doing a great job despite complaints, and though I'd love to see a few changes just like everyone else, I love SL as it is even now. Good job.
Foster Virgo: atleast till 1.5 or whatever
Ace Cassidy: dwell bonuses actually encourage people to build places that attract a lot of AV's to a single spot, causing lag
Cybin Monde: oh.. one last thing
Cybin Monde: a side note really
Haney Linden: right, Ace thats a big one
Ace Cassidy: maybe dwell should be punted altogether
Tiger Crossing: Oh... And better group systems. (Ack. Forgot to get into THAT!
Flyte Xevious: yeah and you can only get 32 in 1 spot so your dwell is limited by the hour...
Haney Linden: Yes, group systems
Flyte Xevious: oh yeah
Cybin Monde: an ability to see a list of objects on one's land and who they're owned by
Flyte Xevious: if you want a group suggestion, tie the total number of groups you can join to the total number of groups that exist instead of an arbitrary set it to 5% of the total # of groups.
Catherine Omega: I'm not convinced dwell serves much of a purpose, to be honest. Still, it seems like there should be some way of rewarding people who create popular attractions. I don't know that it should necessarily be regulated by LL though.
Tiger Crossing: And return them on an individual basis from that list... I agree, Cybin.
Cybin Monde: Tiger, exactly
Haney Linden: Ok, thank youall
Cybin Monde: and thank you
Ace Cassidy: dump dwell, so that club owners would instead, rely on "land passes"
Leran Charlton: thank you Haney
Kim Anubis: Thanks, Haney. It's been interesting.
Tiger Crossing: Thanks Haney.
Flyte Xevious: thanks Haney
Haney Linden: I wish us all the best!
Ace Cassidy: thnx for your time and patience, Haney
Cybin Monde: as do i!
Neehai Zapata: Thanks for the forum.
Catherine Omega: Later, everyone.
Catherine Omega: thanks, haney.

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