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Town Hall 8/12/04/R

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Forum Link: Original Post

08/12/04 - Town Hall with Robin Linden
Basic Subject: Land and Land Prices
You = Lordfly Digeridoo

Robin Linden: Hi Lordfly! Have a seat.
Schwanson Schlegel: hey lordfly!
You: good morning. :)
James Miller: These chairs are scary.
Robin Linden: OK - one more...
You: bubble seats of doom
Robin Linden: oh yeah
James Miller: Oyyyy, I have to go AFK.
Robin Linden: hurry back
Schwanson Schlegel: i am back now
Robin Linden: ok
Robin Linden: howdy - last one in!
Schwanson Schlegel: woohoo
Robin Linden: hi Lenneth
You: i can't believe i made this. good karma. :)
Wishbash Broom: hello :) tight spot :)
Robin Linden: I think we're out of chairs, but feel free to join us
Schwanson Schlegel: I am glad you made it to this one as well LF
His Grace: hi wishbash. hi lordfly. did i miss anyone? hi if i did.
You: howdy his
Robin Linden: OK -- first thanks to everyone for coming! I appreciate you joining me
Robin Linden: what we're hoping to do here is have a real discussion as opposed to the usual Q&A
His Grace: hi alpha
Robin Linden: so there are fewer people and many more groups
Alpha Zaius: hey
Robin Linden: we'll combine all the discussion together
Robin Linden: Hi Alpha - please just have a seat on the ground
Robin Linden: I'm sorry there aren't enough chairs
Alpha Zaius: hehe, no problem
Robin Linden: before we get onto the main topic, I wanted to make sure you all knew that we're planning to make a change with the private islands
Robin Linden: I think it will affect one or two of you
Robin Linden: The islands are going to be made transferrable
Grim Lupis: O.O
Robin Linden: what that means is if you buy a private island and decide you don't want it anymore you can transfer it to another user to pick up the monthly payments
His Grace: woowoo
Anshe Chung: Does this affect those already sold too?
Robin Linden: if you want to sell it to them the agreement will be between you
Alpha Zaius: can plots be subdivided and sold?
You: huh. that's interesting.
Robin Linden: you'll need to work out the funds transfer through Paypal
Robin Linden: LL won't be able to help with billing or enforcement of the agreement
Grim Lupis: That might cause you some backlash with a couple of people that wanted to do it before, but weren't allowed.
Robin Linden: it will only apply to transfer of the entire parcel, not to breaking up the island
Robin Linden: if they want to do it now they'll be able to
Lordfly Digeridoo envisions a market of Sim reselling
Robin Linden: quite possibly!
Schwanson Schlegel: I hope so
You: i could see small start up companies doing that, actually
His Grace: will there be a transfer/processing fee?
You: buying blocks of Sims and then selling them off
Robin Linden: we're working on a way for there to be user to user contracts within SL which will make this sort of thing easier in the future
You: ooooh
Grim Lupis: :-O
Robin Linden: we're considering a fee, but haven't set one yet. What do you think would be fair?
Robin Linden: it involves a lot of backend database work
You: whatever makes a profit for LLabs. :P
Schwanson Schlegel: as a consumer my obligatory answer is 0
Robin Linden: hehe - not necessarily a profit making move
Alpha Zaius: hmm, how long does the database change take?
You: maybe $25 or so?
His Grace: hmm... 10% kinda like a restocking or breakeven. whichever is more.
Robin Linden: not too long -- it's mostly the number of steps and such
Grim Lupis: I was thinking more along the lines of $400-$500
Robin Linden: wow. I was thinking something less than $100
You: 400 bucks for a transfer fee? hmm, well, i suppose it depends on how much work is done
Schwanson Schlegel: I think 10% sounds really fair
Alpha Zaius: ah.. maybe you should do around a 100 USD fee
Robin Linden: 10% of what?
His Grace: of initial cost
You: $99.99, for a limited time! call now now now! :P
Anshe Chung: 10% yes
Alpha Zaius: which is 100?
Alpha Zaius: lol
Robin Linden: well that works out to just under $100
Schwanson Schlegel: 10% of the purchase price, a restocking fee of sorts
Grim Lupis: The cost of a NEW private sim, minus the part of that that goes straight into hardware purchase
Robin Linden: the cost of the new private island doesn't have any markup in it
Robin Linden: we sell them for cost
Alpha Zaius: abpout 120 * 12 wich is 1440 (?)
Wishbash Broom: $100 is a lot of money to many people, and quite a large investment in a rather small virtual space... my feeling is that land prices in SL have run amok..
Alpha Zaius: 10%
Alpha Zaius: 144
His Grace: i think Grim's point it that the HW is already paid for, so just charge the labor cost
Robin Linden: which is the *real* reason we're here!
You: quick question... assume that small companies DO buy up a dozen or so Sims for reselling... will LLab be able to keep up with demand for other people that want their own Sims? Or are we going to see another bottleneck?
Grim Lupis: Ah, well. Then $100 sounds reasonable, as long as it covers the salary of whoever has to do the backend changes
Robin Linden: we don't allow reselling of sims so for the moment that shouldn't be a problem
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: (and I was going to be quiet)... well, is there a plan to allow a reterraform of the private sim, or are the new owners "stuck" with the initial terraform of the previous owner?
Robin Linden: the new owner will be able to re-terraform the island
Robin Linden: there will be more details released -- I just wanted to let you know that was coming up
You: sim owners have full terraform rights, correct?
Lordfly Digeridoo nods
Robin Linden: onto the next thing?
Grim Lupis nods
You: sure, why not. :P
Robin Linden: there has been a good deal of discussion and unhappiness expressed about land pricing
Alpha Zaius: hmm.. tahh, was about to say that
Robin Linden: Philip posted on the forums some reasons why things may have escalated and promised an opportunity to discuss
Wishbash Broom: Yup, and I've been one unhappy customer :) Paid US$100 for a stamp of land...
Grim Lupis missed Philips post
You: land prices are truly getting out of control...
Robin Linden: what we're looking for is some discussion about the process, ideas for where things might go
Lordfly Digeridoo missed the post too
Robin Linden: it's on the New in SL forum, under Is It Greed Linden Lab?
Lordfly Digeridoo will look at it later. :)
Grim Lupis: Ahh, I quit reading that thread after the first couple of posts
Robin Linden: first -- we've doubled the amount of land we're bringing on in August versus July
Alpha Zaius: Im not sure if everyone will agree.. but I think that since land is starting to become scarce, I think that you should only have a limit of one purchase per couple of days
Robin Linden: that should start
Wishbash Broom: One thing ( which might irritate the land sharks, but make many others happy ) would be to put a roof on land prices..
Robin Linden: to help bring prices down
You: hmm... no roof, but we need a couple other things
Alpha Zaius: maybe that will allow new people to be able to buy large plots easier
Wishbash Broom: f.ex. top price 2.5x the original patch price ?
Robin Linden: in a free market though, price controls haven't proven effective in managing anything
Schwanson Schlegel: i totally disagree wishbash
You: a price roof puts an artificial limit on a free-ranging economy
Grim Lupis: I don't like the limit of #parcels over time
Marcos Fonzarelli: what about a limit on quantity
Anshe Chung: I am against regulation too
Alpha Zaius: Wish: wouldnt that sorta increase demand for land? I mean, we need to lower the demand and the price..
Robin Linden: in the real world, developers who resell land add a good deal of value
Schwanson Schlegel: I beleive the solution is the increased release of land
Grim Lupis: I recently purchased 5 adjacent parcels specifically for the purpose of joining them into a single parcel
Robin Linden: and that creates competition between developers
His Grace: Robin, you increased the land supply in July, too. What numbers/model do you have to show that more land will easy the land prices problem?
Robin Linden: one thing I haven't seen is the rise of a wholesaler group which competes with each other through adding value
Anshe Chung agrees with Schwanson
You: robin: a problem with simply ramping up production of new Sims is that it hasn't been shown to reduce prices at all... do you rtemember when 1.2 was first released?
Marcos Fonzarelli: Value is in the eye of the beholder in SL
Alpha Zaius: what you can do, is have an automated form of selling.. Where the land is higher for proce depending on the time the land was put up for sale
You: when you released that huge continent south of immaculate?
Grim Lupis: Well, Robin, with the auction model, wholesaling is hard to do
Wishbash Broom: alpha: demand will always be up, especially since new users really can't do much on the initial 512m2 land theyr'e alotted through the landless program
Alpha Zaius: and how long you keep it
Robin Linden: it's possible that we'll find we can sell all the land we put online
You: for some reason, bringing on more sims isn't reducing prices, whatsoever
James Miller: I'm back..
Marcos Fonzarelli: Since anyone can build in SL, it sort of makes it difficult to add value to land
You: marcos: not true
His Grace: Artificial limits on land prices are too easy to work around.
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: land in and of itself has NO value... it is only when things are added to it that value is added.. and then only in the eye of whoever wants that particular "added value".. the rest of SL could prob care less.... for instance, Cubey's home doesn't
You: if you hire a good builder to develop the land, inherant value is increased
Grim Lupis: Marcos, not everyone can build WELL, though
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: interest me any more than his land for sale does right now
Anshe Chung: Lord, of course adding more sims reduce price, but recently demand also went up
Alpha Zaius: thats another problem.. there wre people that would join sl, get expensive land for 512 L$ with land of the landless, sell the land, convert to US, leave
Alpha Zaius: new account.. so on so forth
Marcos Fonzarelli: Agreed, but most people want the LAND, not what's on it
Schwanson Schlegel: perhaps price decrease hasnt been seen because SL's rate of growth has been enormous
Robin Linden: I don't think everyone in SL can build, and I also think that as the world grows that will become even more true
Grim Lupis: I love Cubey's house. It's his plot that I don't like
You: anshe: I have yet to see land prices go down as a result of adding Sims since 1.2.
You: it simply has NOt happened
James Miller: I agree with that, LF.
Schwanson Schlegel: because the user base has increased
You: when the lindens released the large continent south of immaculate in... february? the land prices didn't go down... in fact, they went UP
Robin Linden: if you look at the prices on a per acre basis they leveled out
Anshe Chung reduced prices of a lot of land the last week
Oberon Caldera: If building is not tied to the land, though, how does that add value to it? --You can always move a house or buy a new one easily enough
His Grace: Schwanson, if that's the case, then more land won't solve the land price problem.
Robin Linden: hang on -- i can give you the numbers
Marcos Fonzarelli: That's kind of what I was getting at, Oberon
You: oberon: good point
Robin Linden: it isn't until last month that all of a sudden the price nearly doubled
You: oberon: perhaps build according to the lay of the land? it's what i do
Marcos Fonzarelli: although I didn't say it as succinctly
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: that increase prob coincided witht he There influx, right?
Grim Lupis: I think the explosive growth of the past couple of months has created a significantly higher demand for land than LL anticipated or was prepared for
You: or, perhaps, we could make items that are only for a single parcel?
Marcos Fonzarelli: The problem LF is that your buyers need taste in order to appreciate those things
James Miller: All the land that's "on the market" in the world is owned by a few people, and is for sale. These people, who shall remain unnamed, are jackin' up prices.
His Grace: Robin, if you look at Tiger Crossing's data, the price has been increasing in auction since late april
Catch Livingston: gotta go ciao
You: i dunno, marcos, i'm pretty tasteless, but i get a lot of business :)
Schwanson Schlegel: people come to SL to create, the market for prebuilt house/land combos is minimal
Robin Linden: bye catch
You: schwanson: not true... it's simply untapped
Robin Linden: Alpha - there's a chair
Alpha Zaius: I saw a website too, so many people are joining a day (like 150 avg) since the CNN stuff.. Before that.. it looked like only 5 a day avg (I may be wrong, I found it from sensor data on a website)
You: if people took the "hard" road of developing land, I think you'd see a good competitive market
James Miller: That was Ez's website, I think.
Alpha Zaius: but it when HIGH
Marcos Fonzarelli: The problem LF is that building doesn't cost anything
Alpha Zaius: and that can be another problem
You: it costs time, marcos
Schwanson Schlegel: LF - wanna make some houses to sell on my plots? we can test your theory
Robin Linden: it's true the population has grown
Alpha Zaius: time == money
Marcos Fonzarelli: yes
Anshe Chung: There is some land developing actually going on. Look at Janus hub :-)
You: schwanson: definitely
Robin Linden: and another thing that cut into land availability was holding these sims open
Alpha Zaius: so maybe:
You: split 50% of the profits? :P
Robin Linden: we held out something like 6 - 8 snow sims for no development
Alpha Zaius: meters of land * average Dwell * time since purchase
His Grace: Schwanson, Lisse Livingston tried it and gave up.
Wrist Scanner: All Go
James Miller: Honestly, without knowing exact population growth numbers, it's really hard to see if the population increases are the cause of the prices going up.
Robin Linden: hi Crowcatcher
Alpha Zaius: (time since perchace in weeks)
James Miller: For us, anyway.
CrowCatcher Valen: Thank you Grim
CrowCatcher Valen: Hello All
Grim Lupis: yw
You: howdy crow
James Miller: hi, Crow.
Grim Lupis: I figured since we had someone leave.....
His Grace: not cool
CrowCatcher Valen: yes. is there actuallt another seat or no?
Robin Linden: ah ha -- please don't bring more in though
Robin Linden: no more seats, but the snow is OH so cozy
Schwanson Schlegel: lol
Alpha Zaius: Ill be the point of the circle, you can sit in my seat :)
CrowCatcher Valen: thanks robin
CrowCatcher Valen: alpha, thnak you
Grim Lupis: I wouldn't bring anyone in over the limit of 12
Robin Linden: so -- the population will continue to go up
Robin Linden: it seems to have levelled off since June -- still steady but not a huge accelleration like we had June 1
Alpha Zaius: so ido you have the exact numbers robin?
Robin Linden: In May we put the equivalent of almost 14 sims online
His Grace: Robin, you increased the land supply in July, too. What numbers/model do you have to show that more land will easy the land prices problem?
Alpha Zaius: official I ment
You: of course she does... she's 2nd in command. :P
Robin Linden: June = 13.4
Robin Linden: July = 20.6
Grim Lupis: SL is getting more press more regularly now, though.
Robin Linden: August = 40
Alpha Zaius: a day?
James Miller: I don't think that the number of people subscribing going up + the number of sims being added can affect the land prices that have to remember that these people who buy land and turn around and sell it really do affect the prices.
You: 40 sims in august? thus far?
Alpha Zaius: or per month?
Robin Linden: no - for the month Alpha
Alpha Zaius: oh I thought that was new people lol
Robin Linden: by the end of August Lordfly
You: that would rock if we got 40 sims a day...
Robin Linden: nope
James Miller: Yes, it would.
Robin Linden: sorry ;-)
CrowCatcher Valen: lol
Lordfly Digeridoo feature requests it :P
Robin Linden: we'd all die in our tracks!
Anshe Chung: Does that number include private sims?
Robin Linden: or you'd all have to come work for us!
Anshe Chung: Or only auctioned ones?
You: heh, that's fine. it'll pay for college. :P
Robin Linden: it doesn't include private island - just auctioned ones
Schwanson Schlegel applies
Grim Lupis has considered applying for a job, but doesn't want to move to California
His Grace: How many people have been joining over that time Robin?
James Miller: I really think there needs to be a time limit between purchasing land and being able to sell it.
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: why?
CrowCatcher Valen: Good Idea James
CrowCatcher Valen: To help stabalize the market
James Miller: Because the #1 cause of high land prices is people buying at low, low prices and turning around and selling at very high prices.
Grim Lupis: The minimum holding time is probably the one I have the least problem with of the ones I've heard so far
Robin Linden: sorry - phone
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: IF I buy land... I should be able to do whatever I want with it.... IMMEDIATELY.. including sell part to a friend
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: or not
James Miller: No, you shouldn't.
Robin Linden: His Grace - the rate has been steady. can't get into actual numbers
Grim Lupis: but, it has the potential to have the opposite effect of what we intend
James Miller: At least, not in my opinion.
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: my opinion.. yes I should. period
Robin Linden: it doubled on a per day basis in June and has stayed steady since then
CrowCatcher Valen: yes, but there needs to be some sort of regulation in place in ordfer to prevent high prices.
Wishbash Broom: that actually is a good idea, since if you really want the land for the land itself, you should need to keep it for a time. That way profitmakers wouldn't be sure to make a profit from buying land :)
James Miller: Exactly.
James Miller: They'd be able to make a profit, but, they'd put more THOUGHT into each purchase.
Robin Linden: what would you expect the wait would achieve?
Alpha Zaius: lets face it: I know people in this group (wont give out names) they buy land, and then immediatly sell it
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: I don't care if other make profits... whether in land sales or product sales
Schwanson Schlegel: what if LL where to release 10 new sims, auction them all on the same day?
You: yeah, eprhaps it would be a good incentive to develop the land
Alpha Zaius: usually at a higher price
Robin Linden: make it less attractive to buy in the first place?
His Grace: Robin, if the rate has been steady, and the land released increased in july, and the prices still went up. Does the curve show that doubling the amount of land will cause prices to come down?
You: robin: yes
Grim Lupis: Well, I can think of one exception to the holding time that would make it not so good
You: it prevents profit whoring just for profit's sake
Alpha Zaius: so if they increase it by 500 dollars after they buy it
James Miller: Robin, I expect it would cut down on the people buying land and turning around to sell it in 30 minutes.
Alpha Zaius: then a 1k plot would go up to 5k in no time
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: if I want to buy land.. I have two (or more choices).. inclduing going to GOM/IGE or selling products for $L
Grim Lupis: I've bought land for someone before because I was willing to CC it, and they paid me in L$ at GOM rates
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: or just saving... good old saving
CrowCatcher Valen: WHAT GRIM
Schwanson Schlegel: also, more whole sims offered for auction would ease the abuse
James Miller: Purchasing land should be a big decision -- liking buying a house IRL.
James Miller: You don't buy a home IRL like you do a pair of shoes.
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: I totaly disagree James..
Alpha Zaius: lol schwanson
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: land is land.. so what
Schwanson Schlegel: fill the "barrons" tiers w/ whole sims
His Grace: James, introducing barriers like you are talking about will not affects people with deep pockets. not in the long term.
Robin Linden: that's one possibility. admit there's a wholesale market and sell a combination of very large plots and the LFTLL plots
James Miller: I know, His, but, it's worth a shot.
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: this is NOT RL.. this is a virtual world... land is virtual...
CrowCatcher Valen: it's not the deep pockets that are the problem his
Grim Lupis: Crow: I bought auction land on my CC for a friend that didn't have enough credit on their card, and they paid me in L$
His Grace: james, it hurts more people than helps mitigate land prices.
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: you want to play... there is a "payment" to be made...
You: plen: but this land holds VALUE for some people
Schwanson Schlegel: thats where I make the best profit, offer the lowest prices, and stay away from the smaller auctions a while
Alpha Zaius: when I was in beta under Geeky Skidoo, there where lots of public land, wasnt there beta folks?
Alpha Zaius: lots of it
James Miller: Land is a big feature that SL has. People are coming in, looking at the auctions and walking away in shock. "People are spending HOW MUCH for virtual land??"
Wishbash Broom: good example is a patch of 2500m I was considering... went for L$18000 which is according to the land prices cheap ( "bad neigbours" ) - within an hour of selling, it had been split up into 5 patches at varying prices of L$5000 to L$ 12000 and it's all
You: alpha: there was all the way up to 1.2
Robin Linden: there was an entirely different economic model then
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: value is an artifical construct... if I decide the value here is too rich for me.. I'll go elsewhere
CrowCatcher Valen: yes there was
Wishbash Broom: sold now, less than a week later
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: right now.. it is what it is
Alpha Zaius: but then, the highest amount someone had was 100k
Alpha Zaius: lol
You: pleni: hence the problem... if SL becomes too "expensive" for Joe Average Player, then SL goes under
Robin Linden: the highest amount of L$?
His Grace: Robin, admitting there's a wholesale market would help define the problem better.
Alpha Zaius: that I met
Alpha Zaius: lol
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: it won't go under if a few people leave.. it will if all leave...
Schwanson Schlegel: I really beleive alot of larger parcel auctions would ease the barron pressure
Robin Linden: should we think about making the L4LL parcels larger?
CrowCatcher Valen: thats the promblem exactly plen, for many people, it's becoming to high for then, and it will eventually drive away people who cant afford it
James Miller: Does anyone remember Lenin's slogan during the revolution?
James Miller: (I think it was Lenin..)
Robin Linden: religion is the opiate of the masses?
Schwanson Schlegel: 1024 max for lftll
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: when people begin to leave.. prices will adjust.. self-regulating system of supply/demand economics
James Miller: Peace, Bread, Land.
You: robin: offer staggered plots
You: 512, 1024, 2048, whatever
You: BUT
CrowCatcher Valen: not true
You: make them non-transferrable for 2 months or something
Schwanson Schlegel: nooooo
Grim Lupis: Plen, according to the stats we got last week, the average SLer is holding roughly L$1000
Schwanson Schlegel: bad idea LF
You: why?
You: if you want land, you should get it, and then keep it
Robin Linden: I'm just not convinced that forcing people to hold land is the solution
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: Grim.. your point?
Schwanson Schlegel: locks people into a plot they may not want to keep that long
Grim Lupis: That means most likely that a majority of people can't afford land
You: make it a commitment rather than a profit motive
Wishbash Broom: Robin: L4LL doesn't suffer from size, it suffers from too few prims per patch
James Miller: Exactly, LF.
Grim Lupis: we're not talking about a few people leaving out of frustration, we're talking about a potential mass exodus
Robin Linden: hmmm - that's interesting
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: well, if they want it.. then L4LL.. or GOM/IGE.. or MAKE and sell somtehing
Wishbash Broom: Robin: only reason for me to buy MORE land than the L4LL program offered was to get more prim space
You: yeah, but not everyone wants to use Paypal for monopoly money, plen
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: I agree with Wish
His Grace: Robin, the land pricing control in a few hands will not be solved until there is much more land than those few people can afford to purchase among themselves to manipulate land prices.
Robin Linden: so here's another thing to consider about pricing
CrowCatcher Valen: not for a long while robin, but it will slow the economic turnover down enough for people to be able to afford. same as real estate in RL...buying a hud home, fixing it up and turning it over drives the area up in vlaue as well as the price of homes
You: that's another good point, His
Robin Linden: listen a sec, for this is kind of amazing...
Grim Lupis: Yes, I think Wish has hit the nail on the head
Alpha Zaius: SHHH
Robin Linden: we've seen an increase in real GDP
Lordfly Digeridoo is only sorta aware of what GDP is
CrowCatcher Valen: heh heh
You: wait.. gross domestic product...
You: how much SL makes?
Robin Linden: as measured by transactions and dollars spent per user per month
Alpha Zaius: gross domestic product
You: there's nowhere to export goods to... i'm confused. :)
Robin Linden: in other words, the content itself is becoming more valuable
CrowCatcher Valen: we;ve had to spend more
Robin Linden: prices are reflecting that
His Grace: robin, how much of that is gom, ige, and land purchases by percentage?
You: so "stuff" in SL is becoming more valuable?
CrowCatcher Valen: we're being forced to by "barons" hate that term
You: how much more valuable, on average?
Robin Linden: ie people are making cooler stuff and driving up the value of the currency
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: IF I could load a 512 plot with 1k of prims.. then I would never buy more land than 512
You: pleni: right, but that's a problem itself. :)
James Miller: Okay, but, what's that got to do with the problems that land currently has?
Alpha Zaius: oooh! IDEA THANKS! :D
Grim Lupis: The reason land is so valuable to so many is because of the way prims are tied to the land
Robin Linden: His Grace -- I don't know the answer to that
CrowCatcher Valen: the vfalue of the currency is being driven up by land and land alone, not product
Schwanson Schlegel agrees with crow
His Grace: Robin, then GDP numbers don't mean anything.
Anshe Chung: Value of economy goes up means value of land goes up too
Robin Linden: because it takes more L$ to buy things and they're becoming more valuable
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: well.. that is the problem...... prims tied to land... there are a few people who actually want big - large builds.. I prefer detailed builds
Robin Linden: so pricing is increased
Anshe Chung: More value produced on same piece of land than 4 months before :-)
You: pleni: we did that before version 1.2... it didn't work
Alpha Zaius: since alot of land now, is used as prim allocation land, what if we change something with the prim allocation?
You: alpha: like?
His Grace: GDP only means something in relation to various sectors of the economy.
Alpha Zaius: since the land and prim allocation, public land is almost impossible
CrowCatcher Valen: right, but it's also making in almost impossible for newer players to get established,, which will lower the turnover rate
Robin Linden: alpha - we hold about 15-20% of each sim, so use that prim allocation
Robin Linden: it allows us to put in some infrastructure
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: I am an alt.. I wil lconfess.. but having had to go to the lots of land to do something route.. .I gotta say... I would have preferrred to just be able to "buy the prim allowance"
Grim Lupis: Instead of a flat scale, have a sliding scale
Wishbash Broom: For example, when I got my L4LL plot, I started building, gardening, and then I wanted to decorate... No Go. I couldn't even finish the stairs to my cabin... measly 170 prims..
Schwanson Schlegel: wishbash, why not sell that plot and buy a bigger one?
Alpha Zaius: ^^^^
James Miller: Honestly, I still think the biggest cause of prices going for land is these "land barons".
Grim Lupis: Because he can't afford a bigger one, I'd guess
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: now I am stuck with nearly 7k worth of land I can't seem to sell except at a huge loss
Robin Linden: how is that?
His Grace: Schwanson, not everyone can afford to tier up
CrowCatcher Valen: yes
Schwanson Schlegel: thats a risk in a free market economy
Wishbash Broom: Schwanson: that's wat I did, but I wouldn't have had to if I had a decent number of prims on my land
James Miller: Pleni, that's EXACTLY why there need to be restrictions in place -- you should have thought more carefully about making those land purchases before you did so.
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: I thought carefully.. and was willing to pay the price.. no one forced me
CrowCatcher Valen: but many new players want to play, and buy immediately, they dont know to wait
Robin Linden: Pleni -- have prices come down since you bought the land?
Alpha Zaius: robin: could we possibly use the linden land free prim allocation and put that into the sims allocation
James Miller: You were just saying a few minutes ago that "land is land"
Grim Lupis: I think if the "land barons" weren't around, there'd still be an explosion in land pricing, it would just be more than 10-15 people doing it
Schwanson Schlegel: simulators are restricted to a certain # of prims
Alpha Zaius: so if a sim holds 20% linden land
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: nope.. prices are essentially about 500 more per 512m2
Robin Linden: there's way more than 10-15 people buying land at auctions each month
You: grim: actually, that would allow for a more liquid market
You: robin: but the same 10-15 people are bidding on EVERY auction
Alpha Zaius: exactly!
James Miller: Robin, it's not even just the auctions. It's these networks that go across the world and monitor when land is released.
You: they're artificially increasing the prices
Robin Linden: there have been about 50 - 70 unique buyers each week
Schwanson Schlegel: artificially?
His Grace: robin, but the top 10 people purchase 60% of the auctions
Robin Linden: sometimes fewer, sometimes more
You: there is decreased dynamicitiy in the economy because a dozen or so people hold the key to the land, as it were
Wishbash Broom: Robin: how about all the land that's Linden land under sea ? Why not allocate those prim allocations to the rest of the land in the sim ?
CrowCatcher Valen: I completely agree LF
James Miller: "unique" -- how do you determine that? It's quite obvious that different names != unique.
Robin Linden: that might be -- i haven't worked it out on a purchase per person basis
Robin Linden: wishbash -- i'm not sure if we can do that but will check
Robin Linden: James - are you saying that it isn't unique -- that it's alts?
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: I have to say that I can.. as others can.. hold the land until other land rises in cost so that I won't lose out and my land will eventually sell for what I paid for it...because it will be the cheapest around
James Miller: Exactly, Robin.
His Grace: Robin, and James' point about names != unique is worth nothing.
You: alts aren't the problem
Marcos Fonzarelli: gotta go
Alpha Zaius: yes: I noticed problems with alts
Robin Linden: I agree Lordfly
James Miller: Oh, I think Alts are a big problem in this whole thing.
You: if marcos is leaving... can i invite someone? :)
Wishbash Broom: Still, for new players, more prims on their initial patch is way more important than more land
Schwanson Schlegel: the peopel that can't afford to pay RL tier fees, should develop a inworld business to help afford tier fees
His Grace: worth noting (not nothing ;) oi!)
Robin Linden: If they don't mind sitting in the snow
Schwanson Schlegel: lol
James Miller: Okay, I have an idea..."Land for the Trialmembers." That's right, give a free 512m2 plot for their first 7 days.
CrowCatcher Valen: hmmm
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: and then?
CrowCatcher Valen: then what
Schwanson Schlegel: I don't think that would help much, james
James Miller: After the first 7 days, all the land in that sim is given back to LL.
Alpha Zaius: maybe limit alts to about 3
His Grace: Schwanson, not everyone is able to do that.
Alpha Zaius: alts per credit card
You: james: why not just use the sandbox?
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: which would accomplish what?
James Miller: and then, re-plotted and reauctioned.
CrowCatcher Valen: what for james
James Miller: Because, there's a difference between Using a sandbox and Owning Land.
You: not for a newbie
Robin Linden: alts are currently limited to 5/cc
James Miller: Let the trial members see what the big fuss is about.
Anshe Chung: I think alts should be removed from land auctions. Only one name per CC
CrowCatcher Valen: true LF
Alpha Zaius: oh
Alpha Zaius: :P
Schwanson Schlegel: "owning" land thats given back in a week?
You: robin: maybe decrease that to three or something
His Grace has lotsa cc's
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: when I got my L4LL land.. my first thought after a small build was.. wtf? not enuf prims per 512?!?!?
James Miller: It's a trial of land. They get to trial everythinge else.
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: I almost left
Grim Lupis: How about a sliding scale of prims? Say, 512m gets the prim allotment that a 1024 has now. Each "tiered" increase of land in a sim nets you progressively fewer prims/m
You: ew
CrowCatcher Valen: haha
Schwanson Schlegel: NOOOO
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: no
CrowCatcher Valen: bad idea
Alpha Zaius: maybe we can increase server stabilility
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: no Grim no
Schwanson Schlegel: that is penalizing the larger tier holders
CrowCatcher Valen: we'd all teir donw and buy little plots
His Grace: Grim, ugh!
CrowCatcher Valen: haha
You: so it'd be better to have 32 16 meter plots in 32 sims then one big plot in one sim?
His Grace nods at Crowcatcher
Robin Linden: it's certainly a goal to be able to increase overall prim allocations/sim
Robin Linden: they're already 50% higher than they used to be
You: hmm
You: maybe we need more double prim sims
Robin Linden: like the cities?
Schwanson Schlegel: thats a technological issue, and I think they are too high already
You: yes, like the cities
Robin Linden: no one every goes there
James Miller: I think that if trial members got to see what the big fuss over land was, they might not feel pressured into paying crazy prices that Land Barons have set when they're paying members.
You: robin: that's us city dweller's fault
Robin Linden: *ever. it's too laggy
Anshe Chung: I did well on 1000 sqm for months, even have shop and do business
You: it's laggy because of scripts
You: i reckon there's still only about 15k prims in the city sims
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: well, as a relative newbie... prim per meter limts seem to be driving the land prices.. not land barons..I could be wrong of course
James Miller: Not as laggy as Lindenberg :)
Schwanson Schlegel: lol
Robin Linden: hehe
Robin Linden: i remember that!
Alpha Zaius: oh wow! does this sim use dual processors
Lordfly Digeridoo missed lindenberg
Schwanson Schlegel likes that cheese best
CrowCatcher Valen: not it's not the's the select few who are buying up land and markiung it up
Alpha Zaius: or does all sims do that
James Miller: Lindenburg (or berg?) was was half a sim, but, crazy lag.
You: why so laggy?
CrowCatcher Valen: it's completely emulates an RL economic model, really
James Miller: Wel, it was version 0.3.0 :P
Grim Lupis: I agree with Plen. I think it's the prims, not the land, that makes land valuable to most people (not all)
You: robin: i think perhaps the reason most people don't go to the city sims are multiple problems
You: you should put some double-prim sims in the middle of the grid
CrowCatcher Valen: or plots
Alpha Zaius: James: I remember when you ahve that monorail
You: like, auction off some small islands with double prim allotment
CrowCatcher Valen: double primmed plots in the middle of the sim
Alpha Zaius: and I triggered the security system :P
Wishbash Broom: CrowCatcher: and one of the reasons they are able to sell their land is precisely because new users want more prims than their land has to offer, and thus buy bigger land...
Alpha Zaius: ok * back to subject
James Miller: Yep! I still have that monorail somewhere in my inventory..
CrowCatcher Valen: but many cant wish
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: now a double prim sim/plot has more value.. everyone agree?
James Miller: Is anyone actually buying their land?
You: to some, yes
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: and for others.. a waterfront view, or snow... right?
You: to me, double prim sims freaking rock
CrowCatcher Valen: depends, possibly
Schwanson Schlegel: another solution to help newbs w/ land, perhaps have some sims that are dedicated for peopel who are not able to resell
Robin Linden: sounds like we need a market in prim allocations
Alpha Zaius: yes
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: but two hillsides that adjoin..same same to most people
You: a market?
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: no extra value
Alpha Zaius: OH IDEA
You: bid for prim allocation?
James Miller: How can you sell something that is capped like that?
Robin Linden: yeah -- i haven't used up my prim limit on my land, so I sell you the extra allotment
Alpha Zaius: Ming Chen is my roomate: gave me this idea --\
You: hmmmmm
Schwanson Schlegel: HI ming!
You: that is a good idea, but it has problems
Alpha Zaius: How bout we have sims
Schwanson Schlegel: **waves**
His Grace: Robin, a prim allocation market? eeek!
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: I liek that idea Robin
Robin Linden waves at Ming Chen
Alpha Zaius: that selling is NOT allowed
You: what if the person allocating the prims leaves?
Alpha Zaius: lol
Alpha Zaius: it must be released
Anshe Chung: Yes, good idea. Prim trade market might increase resource efficiency :-)
You: so that's a problem!
CrowCatcher Valen: not a bad idea, really.
His Grace: Robin, that would create a new layer of speculation
You: say someone buys 5k worth of prims from someone
Alpha Zaius: so that way
Robin Linden: it certainly would!
You: if someone makes a HUGE building from someone's allocation...
Schwanson Schlegel: wOOt
Alpha Zaius: there is NO worries about land costs
You: and then the person LEAVES
His Grace: not to mention it would make the purchase more complicated for new players.
Alpha Zaius: then the sim is released
James Miller: Oh, yes! Let's sell prim allotment now, too! While we're at it, let's have the Lindens sell L$ directly to the public!!
You: suddenly the land doesn't exist, and then neither does the 5,000 prim building
Alpha Zaius: plot
CrowCatcher Valen: but in that case...wouldnt the people who own the land, still be doing the same thing they are doing now to drive up prices?
Robin Linden: James you sound sarcastic.
James Miller: Yeah.
James Miller: That's sarcasam.
Robin Linden: we're dealing with a real deflation problem here
Grim Lupis: If it actually lowered land prices, it would be an even bigger problem, as land would change hands more frequently
Schwanson Schlegel loves James
CrowCatcher Valen: haha
Anshe Chung: The monthly fees need to be connected to the number of prims used though
CrowCatcher Valen: land robin
You: quadruple dwell payouts then
His Grace: "Hello. Here's some land, but it has no prim allocation because I sold it to someone else."
You: or triple stipends or something
James Miller: I think we're dealing with a real greed problem here -- one that won't be acknowledged by the greedy.
CrowCatcher Valen: minumun time for resale
Robin Linden: one way to respond is to start selling L$ into the economy. Not saying we would, but it is one solution.
Alpha Zaius: lol
You: no, don't do that
You: ever
CrowCatcher Valen: I completely agree james
You: EVER. :)
Schwanson Schlegel: James, if I quit today, there will be 10 here tommorow to fill my shoes
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: I am not greedy.. and I don't care about others' greed.. if I value something.. I decide how valuable it is.. for me.. not for someone else
Robin Linden: the problem James is that people ask these prices and someone is ready to pay
CrowCatcher Valen: not ture schwan, your justifying your behavior
James Miller: Yes, there would -- that needs to be stopped.
Robin Linden: if they weren't the prices would come down
Grim Lupis: Robin: please, no. I think it's best to leave that to 3rd party markets
CrowCatcher Valen: if there would be 10 more they would already be here
You: robin: maybe we just need more land barons?
Grim Lupis: Otherwise you'll start hearing the "just like There" tirades
Alpha Zaius: if we can open new sims (like bunches) that have aka. "No Sell Sims" and when they release: lindens will ony announce the new sims to newer players..
Robin Linden pats Grim on the back. don't worry.
You: maybe fund some land barony, get the prices more competitive
His Grace: James, "greed" is part of a capitalist market. You'd have to restruct the market entirely to address that kind of issues.
James Miller: Is anyone actually paying? I just see people complaining on the forums about it -- I don't see anyone actually buying this land at these prices and using the land.
Alpha Zaius: but you can only hold a max of 2048 per sim
You: james: people do buy the land. in droves
Schwanson Schlegel: They buy my land, as I do not rape the peopel,
James Miller: I was flying around the newest sims today -- the ones with the nice pyramid -- and all I saw was spinning for sale sign after for sale sign.
CrowCatcher Valen: it's all over the newbies posts asking for land....and being dead serious...if thats not a sign, what is?
Schwanson Schlegel: I tun ALOT of land
Robin Linden: James there are far more p2p transactions for land than anything we do in the auctions
You: schwanson: if you don't mind me asking, what's your average plot price per sq. meter?
Schwanson Schlegel: in the snow sims mature,
Schwanson Schlegel: 14 per meter to 16
You: yeah, robin, you gotta look at the new sims...
Anshe Chung: I don't have real numbers, but since I joined land trade I think profit margin of land trade decreased steadily
You: you guys release the sims via auction and then they're just for sale again
Schwanson Schlegel: and I paid 12-14
James Miller: I don't think that adding new sims will help -- the land barons will just buy up all that land and sell at the same prices.
You: there's a terrible middleman problem
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: see.. my land fr aale.. nnot in snow sim. but in mature.. is set to sel at around 10.6... eventually it will sell
You: the only way to short circuit land barony is to release SO much land that they can't keep up with volume
Grim Lupis: Anshe, I think that's because more and more people are jumping into the auctions to try to obtain land "wholesale"
You: which would require like 300 sims a month or something
CrowCatcher Valen: haha
CrowCatcher Valen: that'd be something alright
James Miller: Okay, here's another idea that I wanna throw out.
You: robin's dead!
Alpha Zaius: uggh
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: saw that
James Miller: *sigh*
Anshe Chung: Right Grim. Competition is cutting margins
Schwanson Schlegel: Like I said, release a few sims at once for sale, you will fill resellers tiers, allowing on demand customers to but from our sims, allowing bargain hunters to pick the auctions
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: wb robin
You: hi robin. did you bug report it? :)
CrowCatcher Valen: wb robin
Alpha Zaius: oK: heres me and MINGS idea in one chat! Relesae No Sell sims. all those sims cannot be sold, so if they need to get rid of it: then release it.. People can only be entitiled to 2048
Robin Linden: thanks - sorry about that!
James Miller: Okay, anyway, as I was saying -- I have an idea I wanna share.
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: I don't like that idea at all Anshe
Robin Linden: omg just lost the whole chat log
Alpha Zaius: I have it
Schwanson Schlegel: You: Like I said, release a few sims at once for sale, you will fill resellers tiers, allowing on demand customers to but from our sims, allowing bargain hunters to pick the auctions
Schwanson Schlegel: LOL
You: i have it too
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: sorry.. Alpha
Grim Lupis: 2048 isn't enough for some because of prim limits.
Grim Lupis: I own two plots in two separate sims. The smaller one is nearly 4k
James Miller: Eh, nah, my idea is too radical. nvm.
CrowCatcher Valen: haha
Robin Linden: so Schwanson -- if we grew the wholesale market, sold much larger plots at auction, but fewer plots, and basically let the 'real estate' market take over
Anshe Chung: Schwanson, if you release many sims you only raise the stakes. And you might trigger land market crash.
James Miller: I was gonna say that no one should be allowed to sell land, and that land should be given to people by the Lindens...too crazy.
Robin Linden: you think prices would level off?
You: ooooooh idea! idea!
Wishbash Broom: robin: want a cutnpaste of the log ?
Lordfly Digeridoo waves his arms around
CrowCatcher Valen: omg, you cant be serious
James Miller: Never, Robin. I think that greed will just keep on driving them up.
You: okay, let's say we have a Sim.
CrowCatcher Valen: he'll gobble it up, and mark it up
Alpha Zaius: wow
You: no one will own the land in the sim.
You: instead, folks bid for a prim allotment, but they can build anywhere in the sim
Robin Linden: thanks!
CrowCatcher Valen: thats what the SL realestate market does
Grim Lupis has had an epiphany
Wishbash Broom: hmm... doesn't work on mac :(
You: they can use up to their prim allotment
You: but build anywhere in that Sim
CrowCatcher Valen: haha, thats Anarchy Lf
You: crowcatcher: but it'd be fun
You: i imagine great public works projects. :)
Alpha Zaius: how bout we just make a 6 sim sandbox?
James Miller: uh...LF...that'll create even more crazyness...WHERE in the sim do they build?
You: everywhere or nowhere
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: Lordfly.. how do you deal with two people deciding they both want to build in the same spot?
Alpha Zaius: lol
CrowCatcher Valen: would be funny
Robin Linden: ok -- we're losing it here.
James Miller: people will be building on each other's areas.
You: pleni: the same that's done in the sandbox
Robin Linden: let's focus on LF's idea for the moment
CrowCatcher Valen: he was kidding plen
Anshe Chung: Whatever you do about land need keep in mind the thousands of people who bought land at high price the last two months
You: i was kidding?
Oberon Caldera: LF: can that be sort of done now with group purchases?
CrowCatcher Valen: he wasnt kidding?
James Miller: Point and laugh?
CrowCatcher Valen: lol
Alpha Zaius: lol
Alpha Zaius: ?
His Grace: Robing, making the auction entirely wholesale will allow the land speculators for form a formal or informal cartel to control land prices even more easily.
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: I think location is a real isue.. with LF's idea
Robin Linden: got the log! thanks guys.
CrowCatcher Valen: I was building here I was building here first.
You: it would eliminate land barony, for one thing
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: I purchased land where I did because I wanted it where it was
You: pleni: there's a game called A Tale in the Desert that has that problem
Schwanson Schlegel: to expect that a new player, with no viable income fom SL, and no means to afford RL fees, is entitled to a 4096 plot because they just want it is, silly
You: but, it's not really a problem
Robin Linden: possibly, except that LL would still be responsible for controlling the initial supply
James Miller: I want to know...why are we all here? What land-related problems are plauging us today?
You: people tend to cooperate
Anshe Chung: I think there are at least 20 active land traders and some really dislike each other. So I don't see cartel
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: so.. simply selling prim allocations without associated land has probs.. you need both land sales AND prim sales
Schwanson Schlegel becomes prim barron
Grim Lupis: I have a thought, based on some trends I've seen
James Miller: If we can make a simple list of the problems, that may help us.
CrowCatcher Valen: haha
Lordfly Digeridoo thinks that no one likes my idea. :)
Schwanson Schlegel: lol
Lordfly Digeridoo promises doom
James Miller: I think it has potential.
Schwanson Schlegel: I am all ears
Oberon Caldera: Sounds good to me!
You: it should be done experimentally first, of course
You: like with Olive
His Grace: Robin, LL's track record wrt to land supply is a good reason to be afraid of wholesale market.
CrowCatcher Valen: well, schwanson honesty is nice. he's being straight would it change things? instead of the problem being in would be in prims
You: how, though?
James Miller: Well, okay, my reason for being here is that land prices are not low enough for the common user to purchase land. A lot of people want land. Most, I would think. However, most CAN'T get land -- it's not cheap enough. These people need to be accomidat
You: you'd just pay for prims you didn't use
James Miller: accomidated*
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: why am I here? because I don't really see a problem with land myself.. other than low prim allocations per m2.. but others are really complaining.... and I wanted h to hear the args
Grim Lupis: Sell more parcels that are 1024 or smaller. Sell more volume of land for L$ instead of US$. Put the L$ from land sales into the dwell pool automatically, on a daily or weekly basis
CrowCatcher Valen: barons buy up the prims and resell them
You: you can't sell more land for $L... there's a dwindling supply of lindens
CrowCatcher Valen: i agree james
You: and that's driving up land prices
Alpha Zaius: Im just wondering, are there any other problems then with land prices?
You: yeah, the devaluation of the linden dollar
James Miller: yes -- land is too soily
You: er, the deflation
Wishbash Broom: Why not create sims with higher prim counts per 512 or 1k m2, not allowing people to join or split land in those sims, and alott that to new users ?
Robin Linden: OK - trying to catch up here. His Grace -- our record with land supply?
Schwanson Schlegel: I am wondering if LL sees a problem with current prices, other than some complaining on the forums?
His Grace: Robin, how about this? Find out what the mean landholding for the middle two quartiles of land owners is and making that the new plot size of L4LL?
James Miller: Why would LL see a problem? They see revenue.
You: what if all the linden dollars coming in from the auctions get diverted over to the dwell pot for a period of time?
Grim Lupis: If the L$ are recycled directly back into the economy, it offsets the devaluation
James Miller: That's another big problem...why would the Lindens want to change anything? It means a loss of revenue.
You: james: not true
You: there are people leaving because of this
Anshe Chung: To say something unpopular now: I think this is a lot of the haves versus the have-nots :-(
Robin Linden: ooh James that's a low blow.
His Grace: James, not true.
CrowCatcher Valen: players not staying = loss of revenue
Robin Linden: it really isn't all about money
You: there are people not playing SL because of the land problem
CrowCatcher Valen: they dont stay cause they cant afford to play
James Miller: Well, I'm on the verge of that.
Schwanson Schlegel: eventual loss of customers would outweight a few bucks on initial sale
Robin Linden: my question to you is this -- the perception is that land prices are too high
Schwanson Schlegel: for land barrons as well
Robin Linden: land prices are driven largely by supply and demand
James Miller: I wasn't even that angry when I got here, but this meeting has really made me re-think my participation here.
Robin Linden: we're doubling supply, but population is growing really fast
Robin Linden: hopefully we'll get a little ahead
Robin Linden: the problem is exacerbated by deflation
James Miller: I really don't know if population is growing really fast -- I have no proof.
You: i suppose the easiest thing to do is just flood the market
James Miller: I still see, generally, the same faces around the world.
Robin Linden: caused by a rip-roaringly fast growing GDP
Anshe Chung: In every game i saw people complain because something was too difficult or something they could not get :-(
His Grace: Robin, LL tried to release more land to easy prices and failed (re: record land supply)
James Miller: How do you know that all this new population aren't just alts?
You: robin: I don't suppose we could get more economic data released?
Robin Linden: trust me, i know
Schwanson Schlegel: LOL
Schwanson Schlegel: i trust Robin
James Miller: >.<
CrowCatcher Valen: shes got no reason to say otherwise
James Miller: I should just believe your word?
Robin Linden: i just spent a month bringing everyone down to a max 5 accounts/cc
Schwanson Schlegel: yesd
His Grace: James, yes.
You: james: why not? you have for two years...
James Miller: Yeah, and for most of those two years, everything was going okay..
Oberon Caldera: Is the distribution of wealth/land ownship changing (recently?)
You: SL is still going okay
CrowCatcher Valen: maybe he only started listening to her in the last month
You: the whole point of this meeting is to keep it from going crappy
CrowCatcher Valen: it's getting crappy
Robin Linden: concurrency rates have doubled
You: concurrency rates?
James Miller: No, not to me. This community used to be filled with creative, artistic people. Now it's filled with illiterate people who are here to make a quick buck!
Robin Linden: you must just be hanging around with all your old best friends
CrowCatcher Valen: we cant afford to play, unless we spend high dollar
Schwanson Schlegel: define concurrency?
You: what's a concurrency rate?
You: crowcatcher: it depends on what you want to do, honesty
You: if you just want to socialize, a ten dollar account gets you really far
Robin Linden: the number of people online at the same time. concurrent.
CrowCatcher Valen: very true. and it's limtiing to those who want to create
You: if you want to build things, even that doesn't cost too much
You: robin: how many folks are online at peak time nowadays, anyway?
James Miller: We should be able to see exactly how many online at any given time.
James Miller: That shouldn't be hidden.
His Grace: robin, are you allowed to release the concurrency rate?
CrowCatcher Valen: good idea james
James Miller: There needs to be a webpage, like
You: i agree with james... i want total transparency of worldwide data. :)
Robin Linden: we're going to have to wrap up in a few minutes. I'll summarize the log and send it around to you all to make sure I captured your ideas accurately
His Grace: Robin, how about this? Find out what the mean landholding for the middle two quartiles of land owners is and making that the new plot size of L4LL?
CrowCatcher Valen: I third the motion
You: transparency of worldwide data!
Wishbash Broom: In the less than three weeks I have played, I have already spent over US$100, plus recurring fees that I was unwilling to spend in the first place, only to better get the feeling of SL. My friends however are unwilling to join because of what they have
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: I have noticed lots of people using the public sandboxes as stores and their personal build areas... for huge builds.. more land won't solve that problem... but it shows people adjusting to the land prices
James Miller: We want Data! We want Data!
Robin Linden: then we'll share with the other groups
Wishbash Broom: seen... so I'm not quite sure about my participation on a full scale either...
CrowCatcher Valen: wish just summed it up right there
CrowCatcher Valen: people are unwilling to play
Robin Linden: we have to clear some of that with the board, but it's our intention to give you as much insight into the market as you might have in a RW market
You: ooh, those damn VCs :/
CrowCatcher Valen: haha
His Grace nods at Wishbash and Crowcatcher's point
Anshe Chung giggles
You: knife fight them, robin. five bucks on you. :P
You: challenge them to a duel in Jessie
James Miller: Yeah, Wish just brought up another problem. People may be paying these insane prices, but, how does that look to new members. They won't be so willing to pay those prices.
Robin Linden: they seem to think we might have some competition who'd be interested. Go figure!
You: who's your competition anymore?
You: TSO is about to tank...
You: There already did...
James Miller: There didn't tank.
James Miller: Read their forums.
You: the other MMORPG games are too dissimilar
Robin Linden: I agree -- we don't want to leave new people with the sense that we're only interested in money
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: There is about to reemerge I think
CrowCatcher Valen: There is stil up and running
James Miller: There is alive and well.
Robin Linden: or that there's nothing to do here if you're not rich in RL
CrowCatcher Valen: thats what its coming to robin
Schwanson Schlegel: i disagree
James Miller: Well, Robin, that's what SL is giving off right now -- and that's exactly what There used to give off, and still does.
You: i don't think that's true, yet
You: SL is giving off the aura of "holy crap! you can make money here!"
Anshe Chung: You don't have big land to be able to do something. You can play for free.
Robin Linden: ok - point taken. which brings us back around to the original point of this meeting!
James Miller: Yes, but, they don't KNOW that, Anshe.
You: There's aura was "holy crap! things are expensive!"
Wishbash Broom: Also something worth thinking about... on PC's the competition is ActiveWorlds... there subscribers get free land as they wish.. thein-game capitalism there wasn't as bleeding obvious..
CrowCatcher Valen: I'm an old beta member with a free alotment...I've had to spend 400 bucks in the past 3 weeks t help new players out...holding land for them now, and paying the minthly so they can play
Grim Lupis: Anshe, that depends entirely on what you want to do, even for the longer-term residents.
CrowCatcher Valen: with land
Robin Linden: one thing to think about --
You: wishbash: AW doesn't have an economy
James Miller: New users really need to get to try out being a land owner, for FREE, for a few days. Let them see what you can and cannot do as a land owner.
Robin Linden: there's some validity to the idea that people need to get some return for the time investment they make and the content they create
Schwanson Schlegel: sell it
Robin Linden: it can't all just be about fun, when you have some people putting in as much time as some are
You: hmm, but not EVERYONE can get a proper return
Schwanson Schlegel: market it
James Miller: Selling land isn't exactly creating content...
Wishbash Broom: LordFly: or doesn't :) Been 2 years since I ditched my PC and got a Mac ( which AW doesn't work on... )
Schwanson Schlegel: i know some great artists in RL that are broke
James Miller: Anyway, I'm gonna go watch Big Brother.
Schwanson Schlegel: and a crappy one who makes 6 figures
CrowCatcher Valen: it doesnt have to be about fun robin, but opportunity to new players is just and fair
Robin Linden: thanks for coming James
James Miller: Thanks for having me.
Schwanson Schlegel: bye james
Robin Linden: I agree crow
Grim Lupis: bye, James
James Miller: Please post the full log to the forums, if possible. I'd like to re-read it later.
You: heh... it's closing time for LLabs!
Robin Linden: any last points anyone wants to make?
CrowCatcher Valen: see ya james
Robin Linden: cya james
You: robin: flood the market with Sims, give us more data, reinflate the linden dollar, and give us all a mule. :)
Grim Lupis: You should shoot whoever started that whole $550/acre article
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: I want to reiterate that I think the prob is prim limit tied to land size
You: by tomorrow.
James Miller: and let new users try out land for free!
CrowCatcher Valen: minumum turn over time for land=)
Schwanson Schlegel: and a sheep ;-)
Robin Linden: hehe
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: other than that.. land prices are fine
CrowCatcher Valen: no they arent
CrowCatcher Valen: =p
Robin Linden: what about a cow?
You: no, land prices are INSANE
Wishbash Broom: Think hard about the prim allocations... Ask the new L4LL users
CrowCatcher Valen: land prices are out of control
CrowCatcher Valen: cow?
Robin Linden: one more question -- what's a reasonable price?
Lordfly Digeridoo counts his lucky stars that he has a Lifetime allotment
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: you guys are entitled to your opinions.. as I am to mine
His Grace: Robin, thanks for holding this.
Anshe Chung: Whatever you do: do it step by step and not overdo it :-)
You: Robin: something that costs less than the average person's monthly allotment for entertainment
You: so say, $50 for whatever an average plot of land is
Schwanson Schlegel: we cannot define fair
You: or something
Wishbash Broom: Its only been less than a week since I got my L4LL, so my memory isn't at all blurry ;)
CrowCatcher Valen: good answer LF
His Grace: robin, a reasonable price is what will let people join sl and stay.
Robin Linden thanks Lordfly for remembering it's supposed to be fun!
Lordfly Digeridoo is all about fun. :)
CrowCatcher Valen: haha
Wishbash Broom: It should be
You: the second it's not fun, is the second i quit. :)
Grim Lupis: $50 on GOM is about 10-12k
Wishbash Broom: If it isn't fun, then you can just as well take RL by its horns..
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: I thin kthat a "Starter/basic plot should be about 250 prims.. however that works out land wise...above that.. then tiering
CrowCatcher Valen: well since the introduction of RL money echange, that is impossible. it will always be with us now
CrowCatcher Valen: fun and business
Robin Linden: ok - everybody -- we'll post the logs, or at least a summary of all the discussions
Schwanson Schlegel: ask a Beta person, a person who started in Jan, and a person who started in July what is fair, 3 different answers
You: robin: i think you should poke your resident economist to see what the average gamer's monthly income for entertainment is
You: and then steer land prices to be around that
Robin Linden: i would if i had one. do you know a good one?
Schwanson Schlegel: Thank you Robin
You: i thuoght you guys had one?!
CrowCatcher Valen: mine was 25 a month. I spent 400 this month and next month we're looking at 200, but I can afford it...most cant
CrowCatcher Valen: thanks robin
You: Ian Linden or something?!
His Grace agrees with LF
His Grace: thanks robin
Anshe Chung predicts when land prices are 50% of todaI think if land price go down and people can afford 1000m instead of 500m then a lot of people will complain that they can't afford 2000 sqm
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: tks robin
You: holy begeezus, you're just making it up as you go?
Robin Linden: we do have an economist on our strategic board, but he's all about land and real estate, not gaming
Grim Lupis: Thanks, Robin
Schwanson Schlegel agrees with anshe
CrowCatcher Valen: he needs to be fired
Grim Lupis: Robin, that explains a lot, actually. :-/
CrowCatcher Valen: haha
You: get an economist on board.
CrowCatcher Valen: yes it reallt does grim
You: Greenspan Linden.
Anshe Chung: I see social competition here
Grim Lupis: It certainly explains why the economy revolves around real-estate
You: oh and one more thing... this Town Hall structure is way awesome
Robin Linden: all kidding aside, we've had some great economic advice from Ted Castronova, Julian Dibbell, some folks down at Stanford who won Nobels
Robin Linden: oooh I like that Greenspan LInden
Schwanson Schlegel: LOL
CrowCatcher Valen: haha
Schwanson Schlegel: LOL
You: hehe
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: watches for arrival of
Schwanson Schlegel applies for Greenspan job
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: Robin-Greenspan Linden in next few weeks
Robin Linden: I'm glad you like the TH structure. think we should do it again? regularly?
CrowCatcher Valen: No!
You: yes!
You: all the time!
You: weekly!
You: :D
Anshe Chung: TH?
Schwanson Schlegel: AWESOME!
Robin Linden: No? why not?
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: I like the meeting.. not the format
Robin Linden: TH = town hall
His Grace: More TH. not this 12 player limit thing.
Anshe Chung: Oh, alright :-)
You: you should get more lindens on for it though to let more people participate
Grim Lupis: Robin, this TH format is great, unless you're one of the 10000+ that were excluded. :-/
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: the 12 person limit is not my bag
Robin Linden: there's usually about 40-50 people at the town halls
CrowCatcher Valen: Not enough people included...the streaming questions and IM worked much better
Schwanson Schlegel: this was the best meeting I have been to, and I go to them all
Anshe Chung: I like 12 player thing. Makes it still possible discuss. More people create spam or require strict moderation
CrowCatcher Valen: plus everyone could hear it
You: get all the lindens online for the next one
You: we need as much plurality as possible
Schwanson Schlegel: they are I thought
Robin Linden: we can have more groups, or we could broadcast the chat from each one
You: nah, there's only phil, robin, cory, and i think haney
Robin Linden: the reality is though, that we have about the same number of participants overall and everyone has a real chance to talk
You: more groups... this was a good discussion
CrowCatcher Valen: thats perect robin, as long as everyone can be inlcuded
Schwanson Schlegel: all the important ones ;-)
CrowCatcher Valen: yes it was LF
You: no one died, no threats were issued, no animals were harmed...
Robin Linden: well thanks for coming
Schwanson Schlegel: oooo no colin?
CrowCatcher Valen: haha
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: a broadcasted chat with moderated questions migh twork better for all.. this seems somewhat "privileged" groupwise.. definiely excludd more people than it included
CrowCatcher Valen: thank you robin. you have great legs, BTW
You: privileged?
Schwanson Schlegel: first come, first serve
Robin Linden: well we don't want to be exclusive
Wishbash Broom: Thank you for an informative and good meeting :)
Robin Linden: hehe -- thanks!
CrowCatcher Valen: =)
Schwanson Schlegel: TY Robin
You: oooh, crow's trying to hit on robin!
Anshe Chung smiles
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: tks robin
CrowCatcher Valen: =)
Oberon Caldera: Thanks, Robin
You: DOIN IT!!!
CrowCatcher Valen: thank you!
Grim Lupis: Robin, if you remember the last TH, where Philip used the streaming audio, there were way more than 60 people listening
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: iem for RL food run
Plenipotientiary Extraordinaire: you gys take it easy
CrowCatcher Valen: i agree grim
You: ciao.
Robin Linden: ciao everyone.
CrowCatcher Valen: thanks again grim
CrowCatcher Valen: bye!!!!
Grim Lupis: np, Crow
Wishbash Broom: bye
You: cya
Grim Lupis: Thanks, Robin
Schwanson Schlegel: AFK
Oberon Caldera: bye
You: yeah, danke
CrowCatcher Valen: okay, now everyone tackle schwanson and take him money
Grim Lupis: Nice arguing with you all!
Grim Lupis: ;)
You: i suppose i should learn more scripting
CrowCatcher Valen: grim can teach you LF
CrowCatcher Valen: haha
You: i'm teaching myself. :P
CrowCatcher Valen: see you guys later=) this was fun
CrowCatcher Valen: well done
Grim Lupis: Oh, speaking of LF and I working on something together, I need to have a talk with you, Crow
CrowCatcher Valen: sure
CrowCatcher Valen: IM me
Grim Lupis: I'll try to track you down later
Grim Lupis: will do
You: cya folks :)

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